Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

[CapnZapp]

I found this to be a REALLY interesting response. All of this time we've been talking about the rogue (as a class), but your response here is about "the" rogue (a specific player). It sounds like you want to help this player have a good time in your game (if so, kudos to you for being a good DM and seeing that enjoyment is the point of the game). Let me suggest that instead of solving the issue of combat performance through modification of the entire class that you handle this with a good ole' magic item. Maybe a short sword that ups sneak attack damage to d8s (or even d10s). Something along that line.

Thank you.

Believe me when I say I have:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...he-many-and-fabulous-bazaars-of-Port-Nyanzaru

This thread is on page 7-ish out of 23 pages in total (already written, only I hand out one page a day so as to not overwhelm you readers).

Unless I remember wrong it contains no less than three items that specifically target the problem areas discussed by this thread. An item to counterattack on a miss. An item to make two off-hand attacks with your TWF bonus action. And a third item... sorry, it escapes me at the mo'.

Apart from the myriad items that benefit many characters, that is.

Why? Because of other players (and potentially you) having the ability to abuse an up-tuned rogue.

Thank you. I am aware.

But in my discussions we simply don't see it. The ability to abuse Rogue damage, that is.

Yes, we see how the class can be used to scout ahead solo and murderize single targets. But we're not down for that. Nobody is interested in showing up to sit on their hands while another player plays the game for them.

Let's say Bob isn't a great player (mechanically speaking). He shows up and just wants to have fun with Bilfo the Burglar and isn't really doing too well. You up the rogue's power to compensate and now Bob's happy. Great! Unfortunately, Sally is a savvy player and she's decided to make one of these new fandangled cool rogues you've got in your campaign. She is great with mechanics and takes the feats/spells/whatnot to maximize the class's potential. Now you've got a monster on your hands and it's always more difficult to take things away from the players than it is to give them new things. Maybe you're good with the rules as the DM and want to send in some rogues/assassins for an encounter. All of a sudden you've got a TPK on your hands because you're melting everybody.

I'm firmly in the camp that fighters should be the best fighters, admittedly, but I think the rogue class is fantastic as is.

You really should have Sally call me and explain how she accomplishes all that melting.

We fancy ourselves as heavy minmaxers, and we simply can't see it.

I'm eagerly awaiting Sally's call

As for NPC assassins, let me assure you I'm no slouch in the abuse-the-rules area. Let me give you a sneak preview of one of my souped-up Omu encounters (my party is on their way to becoming level 10).

Remember good old Bag of Nails, the demented tabaxi hunter. Well, I'm planning to give him an Oathbow with Arrows of Slaying. To make a long story short, he will shoot arrows with their names on them from 600 feet away with advantage for 20d6 damage. (To make this short story longer, wait for the encounter in my Omu thread)

Yes, you heard that right. The only way to represent a truly legendary hunter is if he actually stands a chance of one-shotting a character before they hunt him down and kill him. And at that distance, he will actually stand a chance of disappearing (my players like extreme mobility and they HATE monsters that get away) to repeat this. He has divined three names and he has three arrows. It should be fun!

(They have 50-70 hp each plus reactionary temp hp (see the Many and Fabulous Bazaars thread), so even when I roll high, I don't expect any instant deaths - that would require me to deal 100+ damage in a single attack. If I hit, which even with advantage isn't a given. But I expect an hope to come close at least once out of the three attempts )

That's not my idea of a balanced encounter, by the way. I just came to think of it when you worried about my abilities to send "melting" NPCs of Sally levels at the party

 

[CapnZapp]

What are the relative ACs and HP totals of the Rogue and Fighter? Assuming that they both prioritised survivability with the same weighting in ability distribution it would be extremely unusual for the Rogue to be dying so regularly compared to the Fighter.

The Rogue has maybe 50 hp and AC 18, with a reaction parry for +4 AC against one attack.

Both melee bruisers have gone for greatweapon builds.

The Barbarian has effectively 140 hp and also AC 18 (I think), multiclassed into Fighter for Action Surge, Second Wind and crit-fishing (yes, Champion - I was as shocked as you are )

The Paladin has only 70 hp (but excellent healing), AC 20 (AC 22 when buffed) and excellent prospects. She can burst like no other melee fighter, and if she respecs to sword'n'board her AC will become stratospheric.

The problem for our melee Rogue is that in order to maximize its offensive potential, it must sacrifice a lot of its defensive. Meaning things like a bonus Dodge or Dash to ensure survival can't be combined with reliably delivering Sneak damage each round.

And as I have said repeatedly, said sneak damage is nothing special anyway.

So the Rogue is facing a hard sell. Dance in and out of combat, and risk doing nothing else. Abstain from your cool powers and do... good but not impressive damage.

It's a lose lose scenario and this thread aims to discuss suggestions on how to fix this.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The Rogue has maybe 50 hp and AC 18, with a reaction parry for +4 AC against one attack.

Both melee bruisers have gone for greatweapon builds.

The Barbarian has effectively 140 hp and also AC 18 (I think), multiclassed into Fighter for Action Surge, Second Wind and crit-fishing (yes, Champion - I was as shocked as you are )

The Paladin has only 70 hp (but excellent healing), AC 20 (AC 22 when buffed) and excellent prospects. She can burst like no other melee fighter, and if she respecs to sword'n'board her AC will become stratospheric.

The problem for our melee Rogue is that in order to maximize its offensive potential, it must sacrifice a lot of its defensive. Meaning things like a bonus Dodge or Dash to ensure survival can't be combined with reliably delivering Sneak damage each round.

And as I have said repeatedly, said sneak damage is nothing special anyway.

So the Rogue is facing a hard sell. Dance in and out of combat, and risk doing nothing else. Abstain from your cool powers and do... good but not impressive damage.

It's a lose lose scenario and this thread aims to discuss suggestions on how to fix this.

What level are the party? And more importantly are they all the same level?
If the Rogue is prioritising survivability at the same level as the other characters that they want to share the DPR chart with, they should have a similar Con, and thus there shouldn't be that discrepancy in HP.
The AC looks a little odd. Those two greatweapon users have the sort of ACs as if they're using shields, if not higher. That is a pretty major boost to their survivability right there: - I'm assuming its a pretty monty-haul campaign. Does the rogue have similarly powerful and survivability-focused items.

By the barbarians effective HP, I'm assuming Bear totem, and that there are few enough fights per day that they can rage continuously (including reactivating mid-fight if it drops). That sort of adventuring day will also greatly benefit the Paladin compared to the Rogue due to the long-rest/at-will resource difference.

How do the two melee bruisers fare out of combat compared to the Rogue? Do they have another party member capable of handling the sort of traps that they'll find in the tombs and suchlike?

 

[Pauln6]

I think there is an unnecessary obsession with DPR. Rogues have great versatility and a lot of fun subclasses plus ways to increase DPR through multi-classing. Still, I think a magic item to plug a gap in damage dealing is a good way to go if there is a perceived problem.

Another good exercise is to spend a few sessions totting up each character's damage dealing, ignoring wasted damage because the target was already dead. The results may surprise the players. A paladin nova against a monster with 1hp counts as 1 damage. The characters come out as reasonably balanced this way. One of my players felt his Fighter Barbarian Ranger multiclass was underperforming because he was looking at dice totals rather than relevant damage dealt and damage mitigation, which meant his durability was way better than anybody else. Turns out he was top damage dealer in some sessions.

 

[CapnZapp]

Level 9, all of them.

The Rogue can't afford as high Con, since Dex and Int are needed.

Yes, bear totem.

Out of combat the Rogue is king. I've moved trap detection to Investigate and the Rogue is the only one with a decent Intelligence.

But being king of traps does not (should not) mean you have to accept being at the bottom of the DPR list.

 

[Zardnaar]

Your party is using the -5/+10 feats? I think you will find that is the problem not the Rogue.

Don't allow feats or don't pick those ones.

 

[5ekyu]

What do i think about the house rules suggested?

That is the topic that keeps getting pushed, right?

In the context of "with our campaign, group, our preferences, our specific players etc" and not as a general Rogie design as class for DnD outlook (again seems to be the focus) --- I think your rules are overly complicated.

Instead, figure out the DPR diff per round under current rules for you game.

Divide it by level.

Apply that as a per level adder to sneak for that player.

As an adder it wont get crit boosted, much like the 10 pt boosts dont get.

The gap is closed and nobody has to alter any gameplay choices, preferences or dials. Nobody has to even question the labels of rogue optimization as byzantine or any of the other built in assumption s.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

Since you asked, I'll answer the thread title question with a resounding "No". Rogues at our tables have been just fine - both flavorful in all their rogue-iness and very successful combat contributors. That's a 7th level Tiefling Swashbuckler at one table and a 10th level Half-Orc Assassin at the other. In fact, the Assassin was the tank of the party until the Bard died and the player rolled up a Paladin - and now he shares tanking duties.

That said, this perceived lack of combat effectiveness seems to be impacting the player's fun at your table. If it were my table, I might introduce a special magic weapon to make the Rogue feel more "special".

Speedy Shortsword (requires attunement by a Rogue)
This +1 shortsword has 3 charges. While holding it, you can expend 1 charge as a bonus action to cast Haste upon yourself. While under the effects of the Haste, the weapon allows for a second Sneak Attack each turn. The shortsword regains 1d3 expended charges daily at dawn.

I think that (or something like it) might accomplish your goal of making that player's Rogue more of a damage machine in combat. No need to fiddle with Rogue RAW and any unintended consequences it might cause, IMO.

 

[Wiseblood]

Take your straw men elsewhere.

If you had read my suggestions you would have known that I was aiming for "two sneaks per round" levels of damage (though simplified into just the one attack).

I don't think that was a strawman. Damage equal to 1d6 per level plus weapon damage with no conditional requirements is what I gathered from your post.

I think that is pretty clearly going to add up to outshining all other classes in single target damage.

When I think of other classes they almost all require the expenditure of limited resources to do high damage. I listed paladin first as they are often cited as the worst offender in terms of nova damage for martial classes.
Paladin and ranger rely on spells/slots to enhance striking.
Barbarian on rage.
Fighter on superiority dice and extra attacks.
Bard, wizard, sorcerer, warlock on higher level spell slots.
Monk on Ki.

I wanted to clarify for myself your position so that I might help in spite of my personal tastes.
I hope I didn't sound too defensive there.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Level 9, all of them.

The Rogue can't afford as high Con, since Dex and Int are needed.

No. They chose to sacrifice survivability for out of combat capability. How many hitpoints would the Rogue have if they had prioritised combat survivability as much as the other melee characters that they are competing against?

Out of combat the Rogue is king. I've moved trap detection to Investigate and the Rogue is the only one with a decent Intelligence.

But being king of traps does not (should not) mean you have to accept being at the bottom of the DPR list.

Being level with the dedicated melee heavy-hitters in DPR while at the same time benefiting from the Rogue's mobility, versatility, and out of combat excellence would seem to be unfair to the other classes would it not?