Anyone else tired of the miserly begrudging Rogue design of 5E?

[Hjorimir]

I disagree that the rogue requires system mastery to be effective. I’d be willing to accept the notion that the swashbuckler subclass has a higher bar, but that subclass came with that exact warning (see the sidebar on page 136 of the Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide).

If we just want to talk about 1d6 of sneak attack per level, here are some quick numbers (I’ll update my original numbers posted from early in this thread):

5th level rogue (18 DEX), no magic weapon or feats averages 19 on a hit (crit 34).
5th level new rogue (18 DEX), no magic weapon or feats averages 26 on a hit (crit 48).
5th level fighter (18 STR), no magic weapon or feats averages 22 with two hits of a greatsword (1 crit brings this to 29).

11th level rogue (20 DEX), no magic weapons or feats averages 30.5 on a hit (crit 56).
11th level new rogue (20 DEX), no magic weapons or feats averages 48 on a hit (crit 91).
11th level fighter (20 STR), no magic weapons or feats averages 36 with 3 attacks of a greatsword (1 crit brings this to 43).

91 points of damage on a critical is ludicrous. Consider that the 11th level fighter is going to average 72 points of damage with use of their Action Surge.

Let’s push forward to 15th level…
15th level rogue (20 DEX), no magic weapons or feats averages 37.5 on a hit (crit 70).
15th level new rogue (20 DEX), no magic weapons or feats averages 62 on a hit (crit 119).
15th level fighter (20 STR), no magic weapons or feats averages 36 with 3 attacks of a greatsword (1 crit brings this to 43).

Note that the numbers for the 11th and 15th level fighters haven’t changed (they’re still sitting at 3 attacks). The base rogue has now closed the 6 points of damage per round “gap” that is the crux of your complaint and their critical hits spike way above that.

Now to the point of my contention with the proposed idea of 1d6 sneak attack per level of rogue. The 15th level fighter is doing 58% damage of the rogue on average.

We could give the fighter Great Weapon Master and assume that he hits all three times still even with the -5 to hit. That would increase his damage from 36 to 66 and put him back on par with the new rogue. Then again, we could give the rogue those feats that we’ve talked about many times during this thread and he’d race out ahead again.

Let’s push to 20th level (so the fighter can get that 4th attack)…
20th level rogue (20 DEX), no magic weapons or feats averages 44.5 on a hit (crit 84).
20th level new rogue (20 DEX), no magic weapons or feats averages 79.5 on a hit (crit 154).
20th level fighter (20 STR), no magic weapons or feats averages 48 with 4 attacks of a greatsword (1 crit brings this to 55).

Once the fighter grabs that 4th attack, they get back up to inflicting only 60% of the new rogue’s damage.

I think your proposed house rule would prove bad for your game, which is why I’m trying to warn you off of it.

 

[rgoodbb]

If you wish another way to spice your up party’s Rogue, howzabout something like:

On a sneak attack hit, roll a d4:

1-2 – Nothing extra happens.
3– BLEEDER – roll half your sneak attack dice again (rounded up) or some form of other extra damage that will attempt to equal the rest of your party. You have hit their main artery etc.
4 – HAMSTRUNG – The creature is Incapacitated/restrained/stunned or some other status effect

If the rest of the party is kicking DPR ass, then landing a status effect or two in during a combat might be quite interesting and/or fulfilling to your player. It also gives them the occasional damage boost to help keep up with the others.

Didn’t 4e rogues land status effects or ongoing damage? I can’t remember.

 

[FrogReaver]

I dislike the off turn sneak attack junk. Essentially doubling the rogues combat ability by allowing him to get 1 off turn attack per round is just bad in multiple ways.
[MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] proposed solution is to just give that to the rogue all the time because he believes that even with it all the time that the rogue won't keep up.

I believe this is gravely mistaken. I believe there would only be a handful of builds at that point that could ever with the most optimization imaginable do more damage than the new suggested rogue.

That to me is a problem. I wouldn't mind making sneak attack slightly stronger and eliminating the chance for off-turn sneak attack. But to double it outright is making the rogue base class do what only very optimized builds can do.

 

[Ancalagon]

We could give the fighter Great Weapon Master and assume that he hits all three times still even with the -5 to hit. That would increase his damage from 36 to 66 and put him back on par with the new rogue. Then again, we could give the rogue those feats that we’ve talked about many times during this thread and he’d race out ahead again.

About that: I've done some pretty extensive math analysis, and greater weapon master gives a bonus in the range of 2-4 to your damage per hit, depending on the foe's AC and other factors. The -5 penalty can be overcome, but the things you do to overcome that penalty also would boost the chance to hit of a non GWM fighter.

So you could roughly estimate that, on a 3 attack fighter, increase DPR by 10 is a realistic outcome of having that feat available.

 

[Hjorimir]

About that: I've done some pretty extensive math analysis, and greater weapon master gives a bonus in the range of 2-4 to your damage per hit, depending on the foe's AC and other factors. The -5 penalty can be overcome, but the things you do to overcome that penalty also would boost the chance to hit of a non GWM fighter.

So you could roughly estimate that, on a 3 attack fighter, increase DPR by 10 is a realistic outcome of having that feat available.

Good stuff. Thanks, Mr. Black.

 

[CapnZapp]

Could you also address the suggested solutions to your perceived problems of the rogue at your table?

Only in the context of you having read my suggestions, and providing the feedback "I think this would be a better solution".

Also, I'm interested in the opinions of people sharing my belief it's a general problem deserving a general solution.

Not interested in "solutions" that mostly are meant to shunt away the issue to "my table" only.

Thanks

 

[CapnZapp]

You really don't see how those two details are at odds, do you? Your message could have been crystal clear in the title of the thread, and if not there, then definitely in your first post in the thread - which was not the case this time around.

You're really going to spend an entire post bitching about the fact a few posters managed to insert their replies between my two posts?

Check the post timestamp. It can't have been more than ten minutes.

Why do you always insert yourself in threads I start only to never discuss in the spirit of the thread? I'm sick and tired of you Aaron; you are uniformly unhelpful.

 

[CapnZapp]

Arcane Trickster, take the Shadow Blade Spell, use a 4th level slot that will be an extra 4D8 pyschic damage and automatic advantage in darkness or dim light, can be thrown and summoned back. Still not enough? Take the absorb elements spell as well, its a cross between protection from energy and smite, but for the Wizard/Arcane Trickster/Eldrich Knight.

Thank you for pointing out there are ways to scrounge out a few more DPR.

Now please address my issue of this thread: what about simplifying and un-byzantifying the class design?

Wouldn't it be great if the Rogue got one full sneak attack instead of two half ones?

 

[CapnZapp]

So let's get this straight.

Non-rogue characters are doing higher damage per round than most people experience. This is possibly because it's focused on situational, nova damage and definitely because the players in question have used feats and optimized their characters.

However, rogues can't take feats such as sharp shooter, sentinel, hide during combat, do anything to get attacks (and sneak attack damage) outside of their turn or do anything to optimize their characters because for the rogue those options are too "byzantine".

Suggestions on how to increase the rogues damage such as increasing the sneak attack die to a d8 or d10 (a very simple fix) or give them magic weapons to help out are ignored. The solutions you suggested seem to be more complex.

I'm not ignoring their suggestions as much as they're ignoring mine.

I consider it uncouth to not mention my suggestion with a single word. Having the temerity to suggest I'm ignoring them when they are the ones ignoring me is worse.

One full sneak instead of two half sneaks - what's so complicated about that?

I'll tell you what: it's not. It's more probable you didn't read my suggestion in your eagerness to tell me I'm wrong and there is not a single thing at fault with this pristine perfect edition; the same message you always post in threads I start.

 

[CapnZapp]

About that: I've done some pretty extensive math analysis, and greater weapon master gives a bonus in the range of 2-4 to your damage per hit, depending on the foe's AC and other factors. The -5 penalty can be overcome, but the things you do to overcome that penalty also would boost the chance to hit of a non GWM fighter.

So you could roughly estimate that, on a 3 attack fighter, increase DPR by 10 is a realistic outcome of having that feat available.

I have seen plenty of Nova rounds where the fighter hits with all five attacks for +50 damage.

Faced with the choice on what to believe: my own play experience with ruthless minmaxers or your white-room calculations, I have chosen the former, and removed/reworked the feat from my games.

The main flaw of average numbers is, nobody cares for average numbers, if you can ensure nova output NOW, and low output later, when you probably get a long rest instead of trudging along to lower the average to your numbers.