Anyone importing 4E’s’Used gear sells for 1/5th if at all’ to other RPG systems?

[Fifth Element]

The language is literal. It's there, it is what it says.

That's the point. The literal words may say one thing when looked at in isolation. But that ignores the context.

On page 8 of the 3.0 DMG, it literally says: "The PCs kick in the dungeon door, fight the monsters, and get the treasure." Without considering the context of that quote, the DMG seems to be saying there's only one way to play D&D. But looking at the context of the quote, that would be a ridiculous interpretation.

Claiming the 'magical walmart' idea from 3.X which is not clearly stated, then claiming things which are clearly stated and provide for this being the 'law of the land' in the implied setting . . . you can't have both ways.

I'm not asking for it both ways. I've never seen a magic Walmart in a game. I said the magic Walmart complaints about 3E are as poorly-founded as the plane-hopping omniscient merchant complaints about 4E.

You cannot complain about one edition's flaws (which are admittedly present), create hyperbole on concepts, then not allow the same complaints and criticisms from this source.

That's true. Good thing I didn't do that.

 

[Fifth Element]

My repeated hyperbole aside

Your hyperbole was the entire point.

it is advised to make it a given in 4e that there will always be that travelling merchant there to buy the weapon.

Yes, given the default playstyle assumptions the DMG espouses (and spells out quite clearly), that is the advice. But you ignore the fact that they also give advice on how the game works if you decide that characters cannot sell magic items at all.

 

[Loonook]

How is that against the rules? Dimension Door can be permanent by the rules. A wizard is incapable of getting a building built?

Plus, since when does a 9th level wizard have a dragon sized hoard? He has however much, or little, the DM wants him to have. The DM deciding such things isn't against the rules.

I can decide he built such a building, I can decide he permanently did a dimension door, either because he had a scroll of Permanency, asked his old master, or asked another ally more powerful than himself to do it.

I can decide he has 50,000 gold worth of magic items today, and only has 1,500 gold tomorrow.

You do realize your only limited by your imagination, don't you?

And if Dimension Door was added to the list outside of the SRD of permanent spells I apologize.. but not so much in the SRD according to d20 SRD.

Yes, my imagination and every shop I have ever been in. Outside of flea markets or black market sales who has a swing of inventory from $20,000 (the conservative, non-weight influenced Modern interpretation of gold coin = 20$) to $1,000,000 in a given day? I could see such happening in a market stall situation, or a situation where there is no actual merch 'on site' (a consignment based situation), but in the case of materials . . . if they have the ability to teleport across the world and cast Message, I would guess that the flow of goods remains pretty consistent at such high-cash situations. . . but of course, you do have experience in business that I must lack.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[pawsplay]

If that is the case, then those 'bounty hunters' should be spending more time granting prayers... yeah... the costs involved in even a mid-level magic shop's item selection (unless you're just going to go about and say 'hey, that just happens to be here!') would be up into Epic CRs in a metropolis... why are these people accepting low pay for their epic services again?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

I think you and I have different ideas of what a "mid-level" magic item shop is. I was not envisioning a one stop shop where you can find an example of every conceivable +1 weapon. The availability of items is for the entire community.

 

[pawsplay]

Here is what the 3.5 DMG has to say (p. 142):

The magic items described in Chapter 7 all have prices. The assumption is that, while they are rare, magic items can be bought and sold as any other commodity can be. The prices given are far beyond the reach of almost everyone, but they very rich, including mid to high level PCs, can buy an dsell these items or even have spellcasters make them to order. In very large cities, some shops might specialize in magic items if their clientele is very wealthy or includes a large number of adventurer [sic] (and such shops would have lots of magical protections to ward away thieves). Magic items might even be available in normal markets and shops occasionally. For example, a weaponsmith might have a few magic weapons for sale along with her normal wares.

 

[Treebore]

And if Dimension Door was added to the list outside of the SRD of permanent spells I apologize.. but not so much in the SRD according to d20 SRD.

Yes, my imagination and every shop I have ever been in. Outside of flea markets or black market sales who has a swing of inventory from $20,000 (the conservative, non-weight influenced Modern interpretation of gold coin = 20$) to $1,000,000 in a given day? I could see such happening in a market stall situation, or a situation where there is no actual merch 'on site' (a consignment based situation), but in the case of materials . . . if they have the ability to teleport across the world and cast Message, I would guess that the flow of goods remains pretty consistent at such high-cash situations. . . but of course, you do have experience in business that I must lack.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

Your right by the raw Dimension Door cannot be permanatized.

I guess I'll have to just use my "DM power" and allow Dimension Door to be permanetized. I believe that is allowed somewhere in the raw. You know, where the DM makes decisions?

As for your follow up argument you are going to extreme parameters to prove a point, a point you are not making. Keep your argument within a low level game, or mid range game, or high level game.

Trying to prove a low level magic shop is broken for a low level game by saying they can teleport across the world and use message spells is not an effective argument. 9th level mages cannot do that, unless they got a magic item that allows them to. They can only teleport 900 miles per spell, and can only do that once, maybe twice per day. Not to mention possible risks of mishap when they aren't very familiar with where they are going.

Now if I want to go extreme like you do I could just say that every shop in the world is ran by 20 100th level wizards. That would keep them safe from being robbed. Or maybe I should have there be 50 per shop? 100? 500? How extreme do you want to go?

 

[Loonook]

Your right by the raw Dimension Door cannot be permanatized.

I guess I'll have to just use my "DM power" and allow Dimension Door to be permanetized. I believe that is allowed somewhere in the raw. You know, where the DM makes decisions?

As for your follow up argument you are going to extreme parameters to prove a point, a point you are not making. Keep your argument within a low level game, or mid range game, or high level game.

Trying to prove a low level magic shop is broken for a low level game by saying they can teleport across the world and use message spells is not an effective argument. 9th level mages cannot do that, unless they got a magic item that allows them to. They can only teleport 900 miles per spell, and can only do that once, maybe twice per day. Not to mention possible risks of mishap when they aren't very familiar with where they are going.

Now if I want to go extreme like you do I could just say that every shop in the world is ran by 20 100th level wizards. That would keep them safe from being robbed. Or maybe I should have there be 50 per shop? 100? 500? How extreme do you want to go?

I'm not the one breaking the rules of a spell to create an effect which could easily be made by anyone who can cast dimension door and understand a coordinate system. Also, what is to prevent these said-same mages from having, I don't know, a keyed teleportation circle (costs 4500 XP and a good amount of money, but hey these guys are apparently taking in hundreds of thousands of gold in assets and liquidating them in less than a day) to a location within a giant self-storage unit run by some corrupt mage who installs the system and enacts a hefty fee? Hell, a Robe of the Mountebank would allow anyone with the coordinates to access the location.

I'm the one saying that the concept of a heavily-guarded magic shop is ridiculous because, well, it is. Buildings can be disintegrated, cracked open, and otherwise manipulated... but you're unwilling to accept that. I supply basic rules-as-written (so as to keep within somewhat of a framework on this) and you then come at me with DM fiat.

If fiat controls your whole game then be my guest... every barmaid has the ability to be a Hundred-Handed One's meat-puppet. However, don't go around claiming that something is feasible as a business model if it is going to cost an exorbitant amount, require breaking the rules in the DM's favor, and consistently make a couple dozen shopkeeps in various areas autolevel so the PCs won't take their stuff... well, it doesn't seem too prudent.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

EDIT: Apologies... TWO robes of the Mountebank, one on the inside of the vault, then one kept on the outside. Imperfect solution, but not rulebreaking.

 

[Treebore]

I'm not the one breaking the rules of a spell to create an effect which could easily be made by anyone who can cast dimension door and understand a coordinate system. Also, what is to prevent these said-same mages from having, I don't know, a keyed teleportation circle (costs 4500 XP and a good amount of money, but hey these guys are apparently taking in hundreds of thousands of gold in assets and liquidating them in less than a day) to a location within a giant self-storage unit run by some corrupt mage who installs the system and enacts a hefty fee? Hell, a Robe of the Mountebank would allow anyone with the coordinates to access the location.

I'm the one saying that the concept of a heavily-guarded magic shop is ridiculous because, well, it is. Buildings can be disintegrated, cracked open, and otherwise manipulated... but you're unwilling to accept that. I supply basic rules-as-written (so as to keep within somewhat of a framework on this) and you then come at me with DM fiat.

If fiat controls your whole game then be my guest... every barmaid has the ability to be a Hundred-Handed One's meat-puppet. However, don't go around claiming that something is feasible as a business model if it is going to cost an exorbitant amount, require breaking the rules in the DM's favor, and consistently make a couple dozen shopkeeps in various areas autolevel so the PCs won't take their stuff... well, it doesn't seem too prudent.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

EDIT: Apologies... TWO robes of the Mountebank, one on the inside of the vault, then one kept on the outside. Imperfect solution, but not rulebreaking.

I'm not unwilling to accept anything. Your just jumping up and down the level spectrum to break things. On top of that its not against RAW to make Dimension Door permanent. The Permanency Spell that does that just isn't in the PH.

Your the one that keeps talking high level. There are ways, high level ways, to counter such things like disintegrate, and many other spells. It may take allowing variant Permanency spells to be researched, or variant spells to be researched, all because designers said there could be magic shops, then didn't create spells, or have spells on the RAW permanency list, to allow such establishments to be effectively defended, but thats why the RAW allows DM's to use their brains and their imagination there in.

IE, as the DM, when you see an abusable loop hole in the rules, you close the loop. So if I need a Dimension Door that is permanent, I allow Permanency to work on it. As long as I allow the players to research their own version, or find it on a scroll, its all fair.

Saying a permanent Dimension Door cannot be used is the exact same as saying I, as the DM, cannot use spells I created, or that other players created. By the RAW, I can, any time I wish. I am the DM after all. I have the final say in all things. Just like you do for your games, so instead of coming up with excuses find ways to make things work. As the DM your allowed to do so, as long as your fair about it. Creating a spell variant you need to solve a situation you want solved is definitely one of those things your allowed to do.

 

[Loonook]

I'm not unwilling to accept anything. Your just jumping up and down the level spectrum to break things. On top of that its not against RAW to make Dimension Door permanent. The Permanency Spell that does that just isn't in the PH.

Your the one that keeps talking high level. There are ways, high level ways, to counter such things like disintegrate, and many other spells. It may take allowing variant Permanency spells to be researched, or variant spells to be researched, all because designers said there could be magic shops, then didn't create spells, or have spells on the RAW permanency list, to allow such establishments to be effectively defended, but thats why the RAW allows DM's to use their brains and their imagination there in.

IE, as the DM, when you see an abusable loop hole in the rules, you close the loop. So if I need a Dimension Door that is permanent, I allow Permanency to work on it. As long as I allow the players to research their own version, or find it on a scroll, its all fair.

Saying a permanent Dimension Door cannot be used is the exact same as saying I, as the DM, cannot use spells I created, or that other players created. By the RAW, I can, any time I wish. I am the DM after all. I have the final say in all things. Just like you do for your games, so instead of coming up with excuses find ways to make things work. As the DM your allowed to do so, as long as your fair about it. Creating a spell variant you need to solve a situation you want solved is definitely one of those things your allowed to do.

You're the one who brings up putting in creatures which will make the PCs 'cry for their mommies' whenever they try to do something which would make a lot of sense; you're also refusing PCs that are of certain alignments . . . but if I needed to outfit an army and I had a Red Wizard arms depot near me, I bet I could get someone to help me out... of course, I use FR as an example because we can talk in that setting as a sort of universal language for this discussion.

And yes, creating a variant spell is great . . . however, when you mention that masters, others, scrolls, etc. could help the person to do something, and then have ideas proffered which would work without researching and other complications . . . it just seems kinda obtuse to accuse someone else of doing something which is 'against the rules' when they're trying to follow the rules for the discussion.

Technically anything can be covered by Rule 0, and your concepts have been strictly Rule 0'd. I'm trying to give alternate options which exist within the rules so we can discuss the topic without having to rely completely on Rule 0 and fiat to make decisions. For around 23k (or really, probably a little less for an item at 2/day) to give an average non-magician the ability to use dimension door in a way which would serve without permanency (or another research of it). Bury the place somewhere with a lot of dangerous pockets, and it may work.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

This thread got too long since i last saw it... too lazy to go through quoting...

As for the "new age D&D players weened from video games," that would be me. If you've got a problem with how I came into the game or that I wasn't yet born when you first started playing, well...I don't ing care. Despite my brutish upbringing in the gaming world, I actually dislike 4E*, have pleasantly nostalgic memories of what little 2E I did play, and would be open to trying earlier editions if presented the opportunity. There is no means for me to not take that comment personally.

As for the traveling merchants, bravo to the person (Treebore?) who said that in medieval/renaissance times merchants made up a large portion of travelers. I don't see why people would get angry about having traveling merchants in the game world. in my games, merchants are often also parts of guilds and frequently a given shop owner will have trade agreements and communications with other nearby merchants. So that if he personally doesn't have a particular item, he may know someone who does. Of course, that person returns the favor and sends business his way when the situation is reversed. Always seemed sensible to me.

Your right by the raw Dimension Door cannot be permanatized.

I guess I'll have to just use my "DM power" and allow Dimension Door to be permanetized. I believe that is allowed somewhere in the raw. You know, where the DM makes decisions?

Maybe at the level range you were using, and it's fine to use DM powers. Just a few levels later, though, the wizard can have Phase Door, which IS on the permanency list, and for your example would work just as well (At least, it can transport you far enough to a tunnel to the real vault only accessible via phase door).

EDIT: *And there's nothing wrong with you if you do like 4E, I was just using myself (yeah, anecdotal evidence, so what?) to disprove the person who made the comment, since by his reasoning I should not have the preferences I do.