*Archtypical Paladin Quandry* The 'Are you a Paladin?' Question.

[TheEvil]

The most recent paladin thread reminded me of one of the questions which seems to invariably come up when the paladin's code of conduct is debated. I am curious how the board in general feels about it. Without further ado, the set up:

The party (containing a paladin, let's call him Dudley) needs to enter the Evil Overlord's city. At the gate, armed guards ask everyone entering the city if they are a paladin. Any answer in the affirmative will result in arrest and a very short trial followed by execution. When Dudley is asked if he is a paladin, he says no.

Now the poll:

Should Dudley be stripped of his powers for violation of the Code?

 

[Laman Stahros]

Why do they have to enter the city? If it is truley needed for them to enter the city (and in accordance with the paladin's code), then no warning would be needed because there would be no problem. If they needed to enter for some random reason, a warning would be proper.

 

[TheEvil]

Why do they have to enter the city? If it is truley needed for them to enter the city (and in accordance with the paladin's code), then no warning would be needed because there would be no problem. If they needed to enter for some random reason, a warning would be proper.

The party NEEDS to enter the city for very valid and completely unspecified plotline reasons.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

No. Look at it this way, it might be morally wrong to tell a lie, but if that lie can save the live of hundreds of people, it is definetely worth it. The character and their deity would know this.

 

[Timeboxer]

I chose a warning, mostly because... well, let me try to explain.

Paladins stand for honor and justice and whatnot. They stand in the light. Working in the shadows is somewhat counter to what paladins usually stand for. Now, it makes sense to claim to not be a paladin in this case. You get the job done and do the good deed.

But the thing is, paladins stand for more than practicality -- they stand for an ideal. And claiming to not be a paladin somewhat violates that ideal. It's a bit like knifing someone in the back, but on perhaps a larger scale. It might be more expedient to not claim to be a paladin, but doing so involves, at least to some extent, a degree of subterfuge.

So it seems to me that what it comes down to is, as Tom Russell wrote on Monitor Duty the other day, "is it better to maintain moral high-ground or to deal with day to day realities?" I would argue that for a paladin, the former is more important than for your average LG character.

So, a warning. Trivial enough to not have powers stripped, but you have to be careful not to travel too far down the path. (This seems to be the same reason why Nightsong Enforcers and the like are seen as "on the edge.")

 

[Michael Morris]

I'd feign being unable to talk and let the rogue do the fast talking In which case I didn't tell a lie (though I would have been present when one was told).

 

[Trickstergod]

No. Look at it this way, it might be morally wrong to tell a lie, but if that lie can save the live of hundreds of people, it is definetely worth it. The character and their deity would know this.

If it's morally wrong, that right there defines it as a paladin-stripping event. Paladin's shouldn't follow that whole "Ends justify the means" thing.

In response to the original poster, though:

I see that sort of lie more a chaotic act than an evil one. Code of conduct doesn't say violating the code strips the paladin of his abilities, it says he loses them if he ever willingly commits an evil act. The ex-paladins part elaborates by saying a gross violation of the code of conduct strips abilities, too.

Now, a paladin should avoid violating the code of conduct, but lying and saying "I'm not a paladin" doesn't qualify as an evil act or a gross violating of the code of conduct. Nor does it immediately change the paladin from lawful good to neutral good.

So, no. The paladin's in the clear.

 

[The Thayan Menace]

Whatever ....

The OP example is absurd.

The paladin keeps his powers; no warning is necessary.

-Samir Asad

 

[Angel Tarragon]

I look at it this way, just ask yourself: What Would My Deity Do?

 

[Hammerhead]

Well, Heironeous would sneer at the fool and lay him, the evil Overlord, and the rest of the wicked in that city to waste and ash.