*Archtypical Paladin Quandry* The 'Are you a Paladin?' Question.

[Sejs]

Honor, chivalry, justice, all that happy stuff, *only applied* to those the knightly sorts deemed worthy. A Paladin of Heironyus, for instance, is not going to be punished by his god of chivalry and honor for not being a perfect gentleman to that Sea Hag trying to rip his head off...

More to the point, it was something you showed to someone who would show it back.

So if the guard asks "Are you a paladin? Just FYI - if you answer 'yes', then the punishment is death," then you say no. Killing paladins isn't an honorable thing to do, and hence you're not required to go march off like a lamb to the slaughter.

 

[delericho]

The party (containing a paladin, let's call him Dudley) needs to enter the Evil Overlord's city. At the gate, armed guards ask everyone entering the city if they are a paladin.

Wouldn't happen in my game. In-game, characters don't talk about levels, alignments, or classes (at least in those terms). I did have one campaign featuring an organisation called the Paladins, but they generally weren't members of that class.

Still, do go on...

Any answer in the affirmative will result in arrest and a very short trial followed by execution. When Dudley is asked if he is a paladin, he says no.

Now the poll:

Should Dudley be stripped of his powers for violation of the Code?

No. If a DM at any table I was playing ruled otherwise, I would advise him not to be sto ridiculous. If he did not reconsider, I would walk.

Now, the reasons it's a "no":

Firstly, the Paladin only loses his powers for "grossly violating the code", committing an Evil act, or ceasing to be LG. None of those apply - if the code was even violated, it was in an extremely minor way.

Secondly, the "not lying" clause is listed under "respects legitimate authority" in the SRD. (It might be placed differently in the PHB, IDHTBIFOM.) The authorities in the Evil Overlord's City fail the "legitimate" test, and so need not be respected. So, by lying, Dudley hasn't even broken the code.

Thirdly, the entry test for the Paladin class does not include the restriction "must have the intelligence of a squashed cabbage".

 

[Numion]

Kudos on a well executed thread. In the other Paladin threads the situations have been too plausible that the Paladin haters have had easy time making Paladins life very hard, with no allowance for any pragmatism.

This thread has shown that majority of people really see the need to balance Code vs. pragmatism. Very useful.

 

[Slife]

"If I were a paladin, would I have THIS?"
*pulls out evil deity's unholy symbol*

 

[Numion]

"If I were a paladin, would I have THIS?"
*pulls out evil deity's unholy symbol*

I think that any regime sufficiently paranoid to make their gate guards ask that question, would also make sure that the gate guards would not allow anyone to sidestep the question. So:

"I don't know. Yes or no, are you a Paladin?"

 

[erucsbo]

Honor, chivalry, justice, all that happy stuff, *only applied* to those the knightly sorts deemed worthy. A Paladin of Heironyus, for instance, is not going to be punished by his god of chivalry and honor for not being a perfect gentleman to that Sea Hag trying to rip his head off...

More to the point, it was something you showed to someone who would show it back.

So if the guard asks "Are you a paladin? Just FYI - if you answer 'yes', then the punishment is death," then you say no. Killing paladins isn't an honorable thing to do, and hence you're not required to go march off like a lamb to the slaughter.

ok - I haven't seen any "yes" arguments given, mostly a lot of singing to the choir. I voted "give a warning", but I want to play devil's advocate here a bit.

If your DM is out to dirty the paladin, or throw these situations in for some sadistic reason then it doesn't really matter what you answer, you are going to get screwed in the end (imho).

As a DM I expect players of Clerics and Paladins to espouse the philosophies of their deity, otherwise why be a cleric or paladin? If you want to cast spells, be a sorcerer or wizard - you don't have the moral overhead. If you want to fight - be a fighter - you don't have the code to limit you.

imho the end DOES NOT justify the means for paladins. To succeed at a task dishonourably or by deception and subterfuge is not success. Killing a single non-guilty individual to save 1000 or more is NOT a morally good act. A paladin effects change through their behaviour and actions as well as by force of arms.
Why does the paladin have "Undetectable Alignment" on their spell list? Range is "close" - they can use it to protect an innocent who may be under persecution by an evil cleric casting "detect good".
Trying to find reasons that the "code" does not apply is "negative" and borders on LN/LE behaviour - where looking for loopholes and exploitation of rules is the way to get ahead. The paladin should be espousing the spirit of the code, and while they need not broadcast their presence, neither should they be trying to conceal it. It will make them stand apart and perhaps therefore allow other party members to act due to the distraction they create.

The above-mentioned Sea Hag might fight dirty, but the paladin should NOT stoop to the same level. He should be a gentleman - but that just means fighting with honour and the conviction of his god, that a pure heart, a strong arm, and the power of his faith is more than a match for the "lure of the dark side".

Read the story of Daniel in the Lions Den(Daniel 3) or Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace (Daniel 6) for examples of where faith in their deity is considered more important than fear of laws considered unjust.

From a meta-game point of view it also gives the DM so many more options to push the plot along or develop the game in interesting ways. It makes for more memorable games and allows the player of the paladin to demonstrate a side of their character that normally takes a back seat to Smiting and spells/turning/laying on of hands. How many parties see the paladin as an obstacle when they want to "question" a captive or take possession of a powerful (but evil aligned) magical item? It should be the other way around, where clerics and paladins are sought for their advice instead of being worked around.

Having an evil overlord doesn't necessarily mean that all people in the city are evil. A paladin identifying themselves as such when asked at the gate may provide a focal point for a civillian rebellion, or a 5th column movement within the guards. If they say "no", and are found out to have been lying then it will just tighten the grip of fear and tyranny that an evil overlord wields over the populace - something that a paladin would NOT want to have happen.

As a player of the paladin I would want to have faith that the DM hasn't created this situation as a "no way out deathtrap".
As a DM I talked to the players of clerics in my campaign (and would do the same for paladins) saying that I would be watching their character's behaviour from the PoV of their deity, and my response to their actions would be dictated accordingly. Deities are in fights as well (with other deities) and want servants that are loyal and can be trusted not to abandon their god when the going gets tough. It isn't a guarantee of a good outcome, but the potential exists for great rewards for the faithful.

 

[TomWhitbrook]

An individual paladin might feel very bad about having to deny his nature, but it seems that such a thing wouldn't strip Dudley of his powers. In all likelihood, it would spur him further on to bring down the evil overlord's rule to compensate for his perceived failure.

 

[diaglo]

(And it is, BTW, a silly setup. But that's a different issue.)

qft.

if the city guards are only worried about paladins entering then something is wrong with the Evil Overlord. he should be more worried about other evil guys trying to overthrow him than a paladin walking thru the front gate.

edit: if the BBEG is really smart he would remove all weaponry from those entering the city thru the gate.

but to answer the question. No. he is allowed to avoid the question just like anyone else.

 

[Slife]

I recently saw some evil caster class (some kind of necromancer?) that can get negative quirks from class abilites. One of these is that the character must always lie

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
"I am certainly not a necromancer who is cursed by the dark powers that I invoke to always lie. I am totally a fighter and a cleric and a paladin. I am anything but a necromancer! I certainly do not summon undead on a regular basis, and am not evil"

Other answers

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
"Moo" (Polymorphed paladin)

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
*stab stab* (Fire and forget paladin)

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
".no" -illusionary paladin
*real paladin sneaks in in a barrel*

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
"None of us are" - All of the party except the paladin and wizard
*Bampf* - The wizard dimdooring the paladin in.


Or
"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
*Paladin prays to his god for a temporary revokation of his powers*
"No."
*Ex-Paladin walks in*
*Ex-Paladin prays for a reinstatement of his powers*

 

[therion]

Paladins

A Paladin would enter an evil city and lie to enter 'IF ITS NEEDED FOR A HIGHER PURPOSE' , probably feel compelled to pay some penance at the first opportune moment. A more strict DM would maybe make him lose his detect evil ability until a penance is served. But if the campaign requires breaking into the Temple of a Vile God, killing the high priest and taking an artifact of terrible power then lying to get in is a valid action and should not be dealt with to harshly.
This action is minor when you think about it as within a few streets of being in the city he would undoubtedly see a city guard beating a scrawny peasant women(or child) and demand payment( either in kind or monetary) at which point the real test of a Paladin begins, does he risk the mission for this one women(or child) or walk away to a higher purpose. If he walks away he should be feeling the sting of shame as her cries echo through the streets. Maybe even a simple cobbler could look toward the incident and mumble' no-one ever does anything about that'. If the Paladin continues to walk away then he could hear the strangled cry then silence. The women(child) is dead and a decent roleplayer would feel horrified that he did nothing and volentarily give up his Paladinhood until he has atoned. A Paladin character is the strongest character to play ever and one of my group went through similar incidents in a city in the Abyss. Faced by such mass horror and brutality he lost his Paladinhood for months until he would console his feelings of despair.
Tough campaign.