*Archtypical Paladin Quandry* The 'Are you a Paladin?' Question.

[delericho]

imho the end DOES NOT justify the means for paladins. To succeed at a task dishonourably or by deception and subterfuge is not success. Killing a single non-guilty individual to save 1000 or more is NOT a morally good act. A paladin effects change through their behaviour and actions as well as by force of arms.

I agree entirely with all of this except the second sentence.

Trying to find reasons that the "code" does not apply is "negative" and borders on LN/LE behaviour - where looking for loopholes and exploitation of rules is the way to get ahead.

I never argued that the code did not apply - I argued that the code had not been broken. There's a crucial difference there.

The paladin should be espousing the spirit of the code, and while they need not broadcast their presence, neither should they be trying to conceal it. It will make them stand apart and perhaps therefore allow other party members to act due to the distraction they create.

Perhaps. Or it will warn the BBEG that the paladin is coming, give him time to reinforce, and turn a slight chance into a hopeless situation. Remember that force of arms could not have prevailed to take the One Ring to Mount Doom - it had to be done by a hobbit sneaking by unnoticed.

Read the story of Daniel in the Lions Den(Daniel 3) or Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in the furnace (Daniel 6) for examples of where faith in their deity is considered more important than fear of laws considered unjust.

I'm familiar with those stories. I'm not going to comment much (because of the 'no religion' rule), but allow me to point you to another Biblical story - the story of Ehud and Eglon (Judges), in which the servant of a deity made use of stealth to assassinate an enemy king.

Additionally, it should perhaps be borne in mind that not all Paladins are Jewish

Having an evil overlord doesn't necessarily mean that all people in the city are evil. A paladin identifying themselves as such when asked at the gate may provide a focal point for a civillian rebellion, or a 5th column movement within the guards. If they say "no", and are found out to have been lying then it will just tighten the grip of fear and tyranny that an evil overlord wields over the populace - something that a paladin would NOT want to have happen.

You assume that the evil overlord rules a subjugated populace by tyranny and fear. It's entirely possible that the evil overlord has brought unprecedented prosperity to his people, and is not only admired but loved.

It is also entirely possible that the party is under pressure of time in their actions, and simply can't go through the long process of inciting revolt against the evil overlord.

(Of course, the party should also probably not be walking in through the front gate - sneak in over or through the walls, through the sewer systems, or simply via teleportation. But, dealing with the case as given...)

As a player of the paladin I would want to have faith that the DM hasn't created this situation as a "no way out deathtrap".

As a DM, I give my players no such guarantee. If the paladin in question, in the situation as given, doesn't lie, he is arrested and executed. Of course, the party would have had plenty of choices leading up to that point, so should never have been in that situation, but I'm not sure that's particularly relevant at this stage.

 

[WayneLigon]

In my campaigns, characters have no awareness of concepts like "class," "level," and "hit points," so the character wouldn't know he was a "paladin." Therefore, it wouldn't be a lie for him to deny his paladinhood.

He still is a special thing with set identifiable powers that set him apart from, say, a common warrior. He may not be called a 'paladin' in your world, but he most asuredly is called something, and he'll know he's that something.

 

[WayneLigon]

Should Dudley be stripped of his powers for violation of the Code?

No, and he wouldn't receive a warning, either. He's done nothing substantively wrong, or conceptually wrong.

People seem to be confusing 'honor' with 'pointless, useless trivial rules designed to trip me up no matter what I do'. This whole mindset that the Paladin is some kind of charicature like the Dudley Do-Right namesake is BS and needs to be recognized as such.

 

[erucsbo]

I never argued that the code did not apply - I argued that the code had not been broken. There's a crucial difference there.

absolutely - and neither did I say that people said that the code did not apply, but looking for loopholes (and therefore not breaking the code) was what many have been implying.

Perhaps. Or it will warn the BBEG that the paladin is coming, give him time to reinforce, and turn a slight chance into a hopeless situation. Remember that force of arms could not have prevailed to take the One Ring to Mount Doom - it had to be done by a hobbit sneaking by unnoticed.

which would have been harder to do had not Sauron been distracted by Aragorn. In the scenario given, the rogue (or other members of the party) may well have been better placed to do what needed to be done by the paladin saying yes!

I'm familiar with those stories. I'm not going to comment much (because of the 'no religion' rule), but allow me to point you to another Biblical story - the story of Ehud and Eglon (Judges), in which the servant of a deity made use of stealth to assassinate an enemy king.

Additionally, it should perhaps be borne in mind that not all Paladins are Jewish

I wasn't wanting to push a religious point, rather indicate that inspiration for gaming ideas can be garnered from sources other than mainstream fantasy novels. I know about Ehud and Eglon, and could throw Barach, Samson and many others in as well that are quite relevant to this scenario (decisions made over how to react to evil, given that the hero is supposed to be faithful to their god). My apologies if anyone took it the wrong way.

You assume that the evil overlord rules a subjugated populace by tyranny and fear. It's entirely possible that the evil overlord has brought unprecedented prosperity to his people, and is not only admired but loved.

It is also entirely possible that the party is under pressure of time in their actions, and simply can't go through the long process of inciting revolt against the evil overlord.

I make no such assumption, but the paladin probably would. We can draw parallels with Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Pol Pot, etc, but in the end it is a game, not real life, and as you said, there is a lot unspoken in the scenario presented that could change the way things should or could have unfolded. The thread title is "Archtypical Paladin Quandry", so I archetyped the evil overlord as well.

Of course, the party would have had plenty of choices leading up to that point, so should never have been in that situation, but I'm not sure that's particularly relevant at this stage.

not for this poll, but certainly would give context to the rationale behind the decision (and discussion that has been generated in this thread).

 

[D.Shaffer]

My vote is no. It's not an evil act and I wouldnt consider it a violation, in general, of the honor code so long as he wasnt lying just for the sake of lying. Certain deities that a Paladin could follow may have a more severe honor code, but that would be campaign specific.

 

[Voadam]

Not a gross violation of the code = no loss of powers under RAW. Warnings are house rules.

I'd have no problems with it for any paladin in my games.

 

[gizmo33]

The party NEEDS to enter the city for very valid and completely unspecified plotline reasons.

A valid plotline reason is not the same thing IMO as a valid paladin reason unless the paladin worships the DM.

I don't think any DM should expect martyrdom from his player unless it's been explicitly stated as a virtue in that paladin's faith, and considered a higher priority than staying alive and combatting evil.

 

[delericho]

absolutely - and neither did I say that people said that the code did not apply, but looking for loopholes (and therefore not breaking the code) was what many have been implying.

Ah, of course. And I agree with you - carefully wording a response to obfuscate the truth, without explicitly lying, is no better than just outright lying IMO. (Indeed, it might be worse, since it implies you know full well that you shouldn't be being dishonest, but are doing it anyway. But that's another argument entirely.)

I wasn't wanting to push a religious point, rather indicate that inspiration for gaming ideas can be garnered from sources other than mainstream fantasy novels. I know about Ehud and Eglon, and could throw Barach, Samson and many others in as well that are quite relevant to this scenario (decisions made over how to react to evil, given that the hero is supposed to be faithful to their god). My apologies if anyone took it the wrong way.

No offense taken. Indeed, there's a reason I'm familiar with the stories you referenced

I was merely indicating why I wasn't going to address the point further.

 

[drothgery]

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
"None of us are" - All of the party except the paladin and wizard
*Bampf* - The wizard dimdooring the paladin in.

"Are you a Paladin, yes or no?"
"Yes." Points to legion of templars coming up the road behind him. "So are all of my friends back there."

 

[grimwell]

Drago tipped the ladel back and sucked down as much of the lukewarm water as he could. When he was finished he dropped the ladel back into the recruits bucket and wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. It had been a hard day. No, it had been a hard week.

“I can't believe Lord Doom ordered us to ask every damn person coming through this gate if they are a paladin!” Drago scowled as he thought of the countless urchins, beggars, and peasants whom he had to ask this question of.

“SURE, I'm a paladin!” A voice laden with sarcasm pulled the guardsman from his thoughts. Looking over he saw that Franco and Sergi had stopped a wagon stuffed with trade goods to levy the question. A corpulent man in the scarlet robe of the Mendican'ts Guild glared at Sergi. The man was of high station in the guild, and clearly no candidate to be a paladin. “Now get out of my way so I can get to the market!” Franco and Sergi acquiesed to the Mendicant's demand and sullenly stepped aside. Sergi kicked a stone in frustration.

“If he's so stinking powerful why's he afraid of a ninny in shining armor!” Dragos thought as a scowl crossed his face. The scowl was quickly replaced by a flash of fear and an utterance of prayer to Lambastnos the Shadow. “Damn Benders!” Lord Doom had recently taken on the employ of wizards who claimed they could read thoughts. Some said it was lies, others said it was truth. Dragos didn't care either way, but he knew that a few heads were on a spike above his gate specficially because of the condemnations of the Benders.

Looking down the line of the twenty or so people still waiting to get into the City of Badd, Dragos noted that it was capped with a noble looking warrior on a steed being led by a man in leathers. The noble looked grim and resolute, but didn't bear the markings of any local houses. The guardsman stepped over to help Franco and Sergi deal with the peasants between the merchant and the noble, finding four more 'paladins' in the process – fiilthy peasants thought everything was funny. Dragos was ready to snap, thinking that he'd beat the next peasant who answered 'Yes!' to a pulp. “Everybody's a troubador these days.” Sergi sighed, completing Dragos thoughts.

Finally it was the warriors turn. Then the morning crunch would be done and the guardsmen would only have to suffer the occasional fool until the end of their shift. “If you will excuse the quesiton, my lord.” Dragos started with honey, better to assume the warrior was a noble and be wrong than the reverse. “It is the will of Lord Doom that all who enter his city are asked if they are a paladin.” Dragos raised his eyes to the meet the mans and await the answer.

(Intimidate)
“Get out of my way you fool! I've got business in this city and no time for your questions!” the warrior's voice cut through the air like a slap to Dragos' face. Clearly a noble, all pomp and conceit.
(Failure)

Franco and Sergi changed the grip on their spears. Everyone had to answer the question, no matter their station. Better to stop and hold a noble than to face Lord Doom's wrath. “Begging your lordship's pardon, but the will of Lord Doom will be seen through before you will pass these gates.” Dragos' clenched his teeth as he spoke, and his hand lowered to the hilt of his sword. The man at the reigns of the horse scratched at his back and Dragos nodded toward the other two guards, there was probably a long knife causing the itch, one that could appear in a flash if the guardsmen weren't ready.

(Diplomacy)
Producing a rag from his sleeve, the noble wiped his face and sighed. “Please forgive my tense nature, you men are just doing your jobs and honoring the will of Lord Doom. That said, why would a paladin try to enter the City of Badd? That's not conductive to a long life!” the noble chuckled and his man found that the itch was soothed. “Your drinks are on me tonight, all this nonsense about paladins must leave you each with great thirst.” the noble opened a coinpurse at his side and tossed down a few gold coins. “I've got a little business in town boys, Lord Doom is safe from my wrath.” he said with a chuckle. “The barmaids tonight will face worse from you boys...”
(Success)

Dragos caught the coins with a smile. “Our thanks my lord. The day is not half over and it's been a long one already. Your generosity is appreciated.” Franco and Sergi stepped back to clear a path for the rider and his man to enter into the city...

***************
Personally, it is a ridiculous setup and when you take it from the perspective of the guards at the gates of the city, they would be slacking on the task to a degree. Especially after all the backlash they would receive from everyone who isn't a paladin. That said, it's not my game and who am I to fault the people involved in this one?

No need for the paladin to lie. No need for revocation. Smart roleplay and it's all gravy. It's not like the DC for diplomacy on a guardsman who is tired of asking this silly question is going to be all that high.