Are gamers really that pathetic?

[Nisarg]

The quote below is an excellent example of one of the Geek Social Fallacies outlined. Namely, the idea that we cannot be "mean" and must be "compassionate" by ignoring the odious personal habits of others, because we ourselves might have been picked on at some point.

Many gamers were picked on at some point, or felt like they didn't fit in at some point. Unfortunately, for many this means they later on feel incapable of doing anything that would seem like being "exclusionary" to others. Even though it means putting up with people who have no self control, or hygene, or behave inappropriately.

If you really care about those people, Lichtenhart, you may want to consider that what some of them might NEED is someone to tell them to grow up a bit, to have expectations of how they will behave around others. Not to attack them because they are different, but to tell them in a friendly way that its not acceptable for them to act the way they're acting or smell the way they smell. It might actually give them a life-shock that will lead them to better themselves.

Ignoring someone's problem is not always a kindness; and usually enabling someone is very unhealthy for them, because it keeps them trapped in their problems instead of helping them to better themselves.

Nisarg

This thread is amazing, really. Now my 2cp on the whole matter.

Let's face it, our hobby means, to a certain degree, pretending to be someone else. It's bound to attract people who are unsatisfied with their life, because it offers them evasion.
In a three hour window a week, they can be someone else, be it a powerful wizard, who has magic to solve all the problems of his life, a mighty warrior, who is strong, athletic, and attractive like we'd like to be, a sneaky rogue, who can backstab people he doesn't like without going to jail, and so on.
What I always loved about roleplaying games is that they help you put things in perspective. They make you think in more than one way. It's uncommon to meet a racist gamer, a religious fanatic gamer, a politics fanatic gamer. IMHO this kind of people can be incredibly more pathetic than a smelly guy.
Gamers can be pathetic. But usually they're pathetic in a harmless way. Even the catpiss man hurts himself more than anyone else. The catpiss man, and all those who have lesser degrees of social problems are exactly that: people who have problems. They are the victims here. As much as you can be embarassed being associated with them, you can never be hurt like they hurt themselves. And since they come to roleplaying games to escape their lives, the idea of escluding them just because they make you feel embarassed is... it sounds awful to me. I've met many people thanks to gaming that have become my best friends. It wouldn't have happened if I had let something about them prevent me from talking with them, or hanging with them. You think you have absolutely no social problems, good for you. Then you could do wonders helping them find solutions to their problems too, instead of showing them the door. Then people could start thinking that gamers are humane and understanding persons (like most of the gamers I know truly are) rather than smelly, pathetic social cases.

 

[fanboy2000]

Not saying you advocate this, but there's a vibe of "pathological tolerance" in this thread that I don't think is a virtue by a long shot.

Sometimes, its not that gamers tolerate the thouse you find repusive, its that some gamers just don't care the same way you do. Nisarg obviously belives that gaming people he belives are social rejects is bad; I think of it a a matter of personal choice.

I won't game more than a session or two with people I don't enjoy being with. I don't mean just people I can tolerate, I mean people I actively enjoy being with. Life's too short, and I have too many other things that I would enjoy. One of them being gaming with my friends.

I agree with you 100%. Monte Cook said it best: Don't game with anyone you wouldn't want to spend several hours with doing something else.

People should chose the company they keep. Absolutely.

Now, to do it for the "good of the hobby" is just pretentious, IMO, but to do it for my own enjoyment of the hobby just makes perfect sense.

Yep, couldn't have said it better.

And for what it's worth, I've seen very few examples of the "cat-piss" man around. I have seen them; often in gaming stores where they seem to just hang around like parasites, but I've never actually games with one, even at big events like ENWorld gamedays and such, where they could (in theory anyway) run amok.

What is it with gamers, old ladies, alleyways and cats anyways? Oh well. I guess there are just some mysteries in life that will never be solved.

 

[Agamemnon]

Oh, FINE. I must be wrong, then, just like I'm always wrong about everything. The story of my sodding life, that is. I do beg your forgiveness that my misguided views thus tainted your thread.

*sigh*

I guess it's time for me to leave now.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Maybe its convention-goers that are pathetic

lol. All of the gamers in the groups I've been are normal (more or less normal) people. And none of us have ever been to a convention.

 

[fanboy2000]

If you really care about those people, Lichtenhart, you may want to consider that what some of them might NEED is someone to tell them to grow up a bit, to have expectations of how they will behave around others. Not to attack them because they are different, but to tell them in a friendly way that its not acceptable for them to act the way they're acting or smell the way they smell. It might actually give them a life-shock that will lead them to better themselves.

There is more at work here than Geek Social Fallacies, namely etiquette. No, I'm not acussing you of being rude. Judith Martin, an etiquette expert for the Washington Post, has repetedly stated that it is rude to correct other people. The only exception to this is correcting your own children, and even then the children can't be adults.

Think about it, how many people honestly thank you for correcting them? A few, to be sure, but most don't, and some will simply be rude back to you. Particularly if what you're correcting them about is a personal matter.

If you really want to change others behavior, then simply do what you belive in and act as an example. To think that wagging your finger at someone you have no control over and saying "do what I want!" works is fine, but don't come crying to me when people don't change simply because you told them too.

Any solution to a problem that you come up with requiring someone other than yourself to change is doomed to failure.

 

[jester47]

When I suggested that gaming should be inclusive, I mean in general, not that if you game you should allow anyone to game with you. An individual should decide for himself who they want to hang around with. What I don't like hearing is the idea that people who do not act like others want, or smell like others want or whatever, should be driven from gaming in order to improve its image or acceptance to the masses. That is elitist garbage.

Thats just it, I know people that think if you game you should allow anyone to game with you. The rant was directed at people that have that belief because it is a symptom of how they live thier lives. They want to be included and so are all inclusive.

 

[Lichtenhart]

If you really care about those people, Lichtenhart, you may want to consider that what some of them might NEED is someone to tell them to grow up a bit, to have expectations of how they will behave around others. Not to attack them because they are different, but to tell them in a friendly way that its not acceptable for them to act the way they're acting or smell the way they smell. It might actually give them a life-shock that will lead them to better themselves.

If that's what you said since the beginning, than we didn't understand each other and we perfectly agree. In fact I said nothing in my posts about "ignoring" their "odious personal habits". What you just said is quite what I called "helping them find solutions to their problems too, instead of showing them the door".
I was under the impression that we were talking about excluding people because they behaved or smelled in a certain way tout court, without first trying to talk with them and help them getting out of their bad habits.
I'm glad to have been wrong.

Also, I've never been picked on because of gaming. There is no social stigma to speak of about gamers in Italy, and probably in Europe in general, from what I heard. Our local TV channel once filmed a Vampire LARP of ours and aired it with no slanted commentary, just as a curiosity. I guess the article that generated the thread had a quite different purpose.

 

[Wormwood]

Any solution to a problem that you come up with requiring someone other than yourself to change is doomed to failure.

Nisarg won't be happy until the Night of the Gamer Long Knives.

Personally, I couldn't care less about "the hobby" or it's image. I just want to roll dice with with my loser friends.

 

[Nisarg]

Obviously, you haven't followed the housing market in Salt Lake City for the past 29 years. Dodge logic? Hardly. Follow my life for the past 29 years.

If the housing or economic situation was such in a region that NO ONE can move out of their parent's home, I would buy this.

But really, I moved out of my parent's home at 21, after finishing my undergraduate degree; others have done so even earlier. And its not that it was "different" back in my days, lots of people do it today. And other people don't. Those who don't can make excuses, but its fundamentally because they choose not to, because in some way or another (economically, emotionally, etc) they find it easier to not move out.
Which isn't nescessarily a problem until you hit about 24 or 25 years old, still haven't moved out, don't have a job, and have never had a serious relationship. At that point, its a problem on many levels.

Nisarg

 

[jester47]

If the housing or economic situation was such in a region that NO ONE can move out of their parent's home, I would buy this.

But really, I moved out of my parent's home at 21, after finishing my undergraduate degree; others have done so even earlier. And its not that it was "different" back in my days, lots of people do it today. And other people don't. Those who don't can make excuses, but its fundamentally because they choose not to, because in some way or another (economically, emotionally, etc) they find it easier to not move out.
Which isn't nescessarily a problem until you hit about 24 or 25 years old, still haven't moved out, don't have a job, and have never had a serious relationship. At that point, its a problem on many levels.

Nisarg

Basicly it comes down to: Are you living WITH your parents (providing income are a responsible adult etc but prefer an extended family format) or are you living OFF your parents (that is they are still providing for you)?

Aaron.