Are multiclass spellcasters really a non-viable choice?

[Philip]

My thoughts on the issue of multi-classed spellcasters led me to develop the idea of Advanced Classes. The description is here.

Comments are more than welcome.

I have posted a few comments in that thread. Your concept has some good points, but I think it needs to be further fine-tuned and simplified.

 

[Li Shenron]

You've missed my point. I am saying that in my campaign, the two are different enough that skill with one means little or nothing in terms of skill with the other. Divine spells are sourced partially externally, and involve (flavor-wise) opening yourself to be a somewhat-passive conduit for the divine. Arcane spells are sourced wholly externally, and involve (flavor-wise) exerting your will actively on the external forces. The words and gestures are similar enough for spellcraft to identify the spell, but on a deeper level they are entirely different. Thus, they do not stack in any way.

I don't think I missed your point... did you notice that your "point" is exactly how the standard D&D work?

 

[Voadam]

For some campaign worlds, including mine, there is a fundamental separation between Divine and Arcane spellcasting. Letting those caster levels stack, except under very specific circumstances (a PrC class ability), violates that principle by implying that "they're really the same thing". The mechanics may be similar, but that does not mean the underlying "flavor" rationale is at all related, any more than saying that because attack rolls and skill checks are handled using the same mechanic they should also "stack".

In many ways in default D&D arcane, divine and psionic spells are the same thing. Dispel magic affects them all. SR works the same against them all. A divine dispel magic works the same way as an arcane one. Detect magic does not differentiate between arcane or divine spells. Spellcraft identifies detect magic whether the caster is a sorcerer or a cleric.

It is easy to make them different, separate detect magic into detect arcane magic, detect divine magic, etc. and make other changes to separate them, but it is also easy to make the casting power more similar as in AU.

 

[Chacal]

You've missed my point. I am saying that in my campaign, the two are different enough that skill with one means little or nothing in terms of skill with the other. Divine spells are sourced partially externally, and involve (flavor-wise) opening yourself to be a somewhat-passive conduit for the divine. Arcane spells are sourced wholly externally, and involve (flavor-wise) exerting your will actively on the external forces. The words and gestures are similar enough for spellcraft to identify the spell, but on a deeper level they are entirely different. Thus, they do not stack in any way.

Whatever meaning you give to the spellcasting mechanics, they're still just mechanics and abstractions. If a PC's Charisma is raised by an arcane spell , wouldn't the turn undead ability improve ? If the wis is raised, wouldn't divine spell DCs raise too ?
Even gaining levels as fighters and raising wis every 4 levels helps in some way.

If you're accepting that gaining levels in other classes improves (by way of prime stat raises or to a lesser extent skills) your ability, regardless of the class, then having caster level as another character-level (as opposed to class-level) dependant parameter of your spellcasting isn't far fetched.



Chacal

 

[Silveras]

Whatever meaning you give to the spellcasting mechanics, they're still just mechanics and abstractions. If a PC's Charisma is raised by an arcane spell , wouldn't the turn undead ability improve ? If the wis is raised, wouldn't divine spell DCs raise too ?
Even gaining levels as fighters and raising wis every 4 levels helps in some way.

Temporarily increasing ability scores changes the save DC for your spells; not many last long enough for you to prepare an extra spell (permanent items would, however). That is not the same thing, as the same change is worked on spellcasters and non-spellcasters; the spellcasters can gain a specific benefit that relates to spellcasting, but Barbarians gain one related to Rage from Con boosting items that spellcasters don't get.

The stat boosts affect the 'natural aptitude' of the character, not his/her skill with wielding forces, and so are not relevant to stacking caster levels. They already have their effect in terms of granting extra spell slot(s) per per day and affecting the save DC.

If you're accepting that gaining levels in other classes improves (by way of prime stat raises or to a lesser extent skills) your ability, regardless of the class, then having caster level as another character-level (as opposed to class-level) dependant parameter of your spellcasting isn't far fetched.

The stat boosts for level gain happen regardless of class. Being a Fighter did not make you wiser; being 4th (or 8th, 12th, etc.) character level did. Gaining a level in another class had nothing to do with increasing the stat, so that argument is based on a false premise.

 

[Silveras]

I don't think I missed your point... did you notice that your "point" is exactly how the standard D&D work?

You did miss my point. My point was NOT about how my campaign works specifically. My point was that making such a change in 3.5 was a lot bigger than you were thinking, and I used my campaign as an example of why.

 

[Silveras]

In many ways in default D&D arcane, divine and psionic spells are the same thing. Dispel magic affects them all. SR works the same against them all. A divine dispel magic works the same way as an arcane one. Detect magic does not differentiate between arcane or divine spells. Spellcraft identifies detect magic whether the caster is a sorcerer or a cleric.

Quite true, and yet there are fundamental differences that are not part of the simple mechanics. Divine spells tend to be protective and supporting, while arcane spells tend to be destructive. Divine spellcasters do not need to rest before recovering spells, but must do so at a particular time of day; if they are "otherwise engaged" at that time, they lose out on recovering spells until the next occasion. Arcane spellcasters, on the other hand, require a rested mind, but can refresh their spells at a different time if they have to.

To use a more real-world analogy, a liquid fueled and a solid fueled rocket both use the power of combustion to ascend and control their movements; that does not mean you can drop some solid propellant into a liquid tank and expect it to work.

It is easy to make them different, separate detect magic into detect arcane magic, detect divine magic, etc. and make other changes to separate them, but it is also easy to make the casting power more similar as in AU.

The merits of doing so, and what can and can't be done, are not what I was talking about. Li Shenron suggested that this would have been an easy change to make in 3.5. I simply disagree with that statement; it would not have been an easy change to make.

 

[Philip]

The stat boosts for level gain happen regardless of class. Being a Fighter did not make you wiser; being 4th (or 8th, 12th, etc.) character level did.

Your comparison undermines your own point. The same thing you say about stat boost could go for spellcasting ability as well.

For example: the fact that (in game terms) your character gained a level as Fighter does not mean that he/or she has not advanced as a Cleric (in non-game terms). Probably the character has been casting cleric spells, praying to his deity, and advancing church goals while he gained that Fighter level. By holding on to the idea that as Cleric advances he does not gain spellcasting levels if he does not get a Cleric level, you are doing the opposite of thinking in flavor terms.

In flavor terms it is stranger that a Cleric who gained a level as Fighter (while being a Cleric) isn't rewarded by his deity anymore.

 

[Silveras]

Your comparison undermines your own point. The same thing you say about stat boost could go for spellcasting ability as well.

For example: the fact that (in game terms) your character gained a level as Fighter does not mean that he/or she has not advanced as a Cleric (in non-game terms). Probably the character has been casting cleric spells, praying to his deity, and advancing church goals while he gained that Fighter level. By holding on to the idea that as Cleric advances he does not gain spellcasting levels if he does not get a Cleric level, you are doing the opposite of thinking in flavor terms.

In flavor terms it is stranger that a Cleric who gained a level as Fighter (while being a Cleric) isn't rewarded by his deity anymore.

Not at all. The stat advancements are specifically separated from advancement in any individual class; casting ability is just as specifically tied to advancement in a particular class.

If a player thinks that increased spellcasting is appropriate to represent what his/her character has learned, that player should choose to take a level in the spellcasting class. Choice. It is part of the game.

The concept of character classes means that the functions and abilities are inherently separate, and that advancing in one does not automatically increase the abilities in another. Skills-based systems take the other approach: that the player gets to increase whatever s/he thinks is appropriate. But note that such systems are not D&D. If you want to model a character concept that does not fit a single class, you multi-class; but, dividing your "education" in this way slows some things in favor of others. In the case of your example cleric, he learned more about fighting and less about spellcasting. I see no conflict between flavor and mechanics there, and certainly nothing that undercuts anything I have said.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I have a very cool Wiz(Transmuter)5/Rogue 5 Halfling.
Yeah... it's probably underpowered compared to a pure 10th level wizard or Rogue, but consider:
- He uses blink to Sneak Attack every round and avoid 50% of enemy blows, and half the damage of area attacks.

This would be the major advantage to the build.

- With the "Expert Tactician" he can make that TWO Sneak attacks every round!

Of course if he was a straight rogue, he could make THREE sneak attacks every round...

- He has a Spell Storing dagger with a "Hold Person" inside he can deliver as a free action on a strike... you certainly don't wanna be held next to a Rogue.

- Silent Spell for sneak casting

Which unfortunatley puts you ANOTHER level behind in wizard

- Other useful spells in his repertoire: Invisibility, Blindsight, Haste, Feather Fall, Watchamacallit Skitish Nerves (raises Initiative)... he used to have Shelgarn's Persistent Blade (flying dagger that flanks) but my DM decided it can't flank my own enemies, only my allies'.

Utility is the prime benefit of mixing caster/non caster.

My own experience:

Mixing divine casters and fighter classes (in almost any proportion) is great - the divine BAB isn't too bad, the hitpoints aren't too bad, casting in armour's great. The classes synergise pretty well. The only real problem is deciding WHEN to power yourself up, and when not to. Quicken spell is probably a good idea. I've got a barbarian 4/druid 5 which works very well - effective in melee, and with a lot of utility from spells and wildshape. The only problem is that his animal companion is nigh useless (not a drag, just nigh useless).

Mixing arcane casters (with the exception of bard) and fighter classes (in any proportion other than 1 or 2 level dips) is a bad idea. Arcane casters have bad BAB and hitpoints, and crippled casting in armour. A 1 level dip will pick up a large batch of utility spells - at higher levels, 3 or 4 level dips aren't too bad. You probably want your spellcaster level to be 1/2 your fighter class levels at a maximum, and the less you can get away with, the better. If you REALLY need a higher level spell, pick up a triggered item with it. Alternately, dip from wizard into fighter for weapons, armour and a feat, then use still spell. It's really not worth doing more than that. I've seen characters try to balance the two, and it's messy. I've not actually seen anyone do the dipping procedure - it just strikes me as a good combo.

Mixing caster and caster is horrendously bad. You can almost always achieve the effect you want with a single class and some flavourful spell choices. Low bab + mid bab means you're not much better off than a raw low bab. If you REALLY have to, make these 1 level dips. Beyond that, you're seriously crippling yourself. Our group had an equal-level cleric/wizard shooting for geomancer. The character's performance in or out of combat was painful to watch. It was honestly like there was only half a character there.

Mixing caster and rogue isn't too bad - the rogue really benefits from the utility spells available. Unfortunately getting half of another classes already reduced skill points (compared with rogue anyway) due to cross-classing is a bit painful. I'd recommend the same strategy as for fighter+caster - pick one as a focus and get the minimum of the other class to get what you want from it. We had one of these in the group - I believe he was wiz 2/rogue 4, which is unfortunately one of the worst points to observe the combination (1 level off of major bennies from both rogue and wizard), but he performed quite well.