Are multiclass spellcasters really a non-viable choice?

[DiFier]

Multiclassed charachters are much more adaptable. I have a Fighter 1/Wizard 6/ Spell sword 6/Eldritgh Knight 2 that's 15th level and 10th level caster. Sure standing around behind everyone and fire off spells he would be underpowered but he can wonder out into mele combat and not fear for his life. when he runs out of spells, which happens a lot less now, he is not totally useless. would a 15th level fighter be a better fighter? yes! would a 15th level wizard be a better spell caster? definitally! but would either be a better adventurer. It's hard to say but I think not.

In the same campaign I am also playing the other player's cohort who is a rogue4/wizard5/arcane trickster1 in a stand up mele fight he is kind of sad. but fighting on the side of a castle wall or sneaking into a dungeon he rocks. In breaking into the magic and mundanely sealed treasure room he is great. He is also great at escaping from almost any jail. (actually I have yet to test this but that was the way i designed him) not as powerful as a 10th level wizard or rogue but way more adaptable. he can run down a wall (spider climb) and attack a rogue hanging from a rope. or sneak past a wizard.

when people complain that ther charachter doesn't get to do enough; My fighter just fights but when were not fighting he just stands there twidling his thumbs he's useless, or my Rogue is worthless untill we have to disable traps or find something, or my wizard just buffs the other players. Those people should try multiclassing. It's not for everyone but it isn't a suboptimal choice.

 

[Silveras]

Another factor

I neglected to mention before that, in addition to the degree of "firepower" expected from the character, it matters whether the campaign is going to "go Epic" or not.

If the characters can expect to continue advancing beyond level 20, multi-classing a few levels is less "damaging" in the long term than if the campaign is "capped" at 20th level (or lower). Eventually, your access to the nastier spells catches up, and the missing dice or rounds of effect matter less. In a campaign open to Epic play, multi-class characters have more freedom to "catch up" than one where the campaign will end with them feeling "under the gun" for "not being as powerful as they should be".

 

[Li Shenron]

Thank you for resurrecting this old thread of mine

My question was only intended to be in the realms of rules, how much multiclassing hinders a caster, because I agree that multiclass characters usually are wonderful to roleplay, but that doesn't help the fact that delaying the highest level spells is a serious cost.

There are three main issues:
1) access to higher level spells
2) effectiveness of the spells you do have
3) ability to penetrate opponents SR

In the meantime I have been toying with the idea of letting caster level stack just as BAB does. It would help points 2) and 3) when multiclassing 2 spellcaster classes but not when multiclassing a spellcaster with a non-spellcaster. Of course this is totally house rules and I don't want to hijackmy own thread, it's just to say that perhaps this could have been a minor fix to the problem, which seems to be a well known problem and could have been addressed by 3.5. I don't think it would have changed much, but at least it would have reduced the penalties.

Anyway, I really like the idea of characters who have two classes, one of which is the main and the other is just a few levels (like less than 20%). I like this multiclass more than the 50%-50%, it's like a person which has a job and a hobby , like a full-time doctor who also plays piano in his spare time. For example, a Wizard with some Rogue levels would be still a spellcaster who complements his spells with sneak attack, a couple of more skills and more weapon proficiencies; otherwise, a Rogue with some levels of Wizard could learn a few good magic tricks to help scouting and sneaking...
This kind of multiclass IMHO should open for very interesting characters. The highest-level spells being delayed is the big price to pay, but I still hope it makes for a viable choice. Perhaps for those players who were so good to get more XP than the others and are always 1-2 level higher?

 

[Darklone]

If they would have built all spellcasting classes similar to the BAB system, e.g. no spellcasting gains in level 1 for some classes, then multiclassing would have been much easier to balance by letting everything stack

 

[Kodam]

Hi!

- 1 spellcaster major class, 1 non-spellcaster minor class

I've played a Ftr5/Wiz15 with spialisation in Evocation (converted from 2e). It was very playable. He was the only charakter who survived (dying 3 times ) from beginning to end of the campaign. I greatly enjoyed the Bonus to the Fort save which is critical at high levels. The better BAB combined with the Str of 20 gave hin an acceptable Attack Bonus so he had good chances to hit at least once and the additional HPs saved him more than once.
But there were some advantages he had. He had Spell Resistance in his spellbook and a 4th level spell which gave him +10 to AC (making up for the lack of Armor). I had made this spells back in 2e. These helped a lot.
And by spending 3 Feats he could increase his caster level by 5 so that he was effectively casting on charakter level. This last one was the most important thing I think. If he hadn't cast on full level, the SR of opponents would have been impossible to punch through and there wouldn't have been a chance to dispel anything worthwile.
All in all, a straight wizard would have been stronger in spells but still would (most propably) have died a lot more often.

Kodam

 

[xenoflare]

multiclassing

hi guys,

i'll be speaking from my own experience with losing caster/ manifester levels, be it through multiclassing into other "core" basic classes, or through prestige classes that lose caster/ manifester levels.

in 3.0, i had a diviner 7/ divine oracle 2/ planeshifter 6 (or something thereabouts); i lost out 3 caster levels from the planeshifter prestige class. it really hurt when i was fighting creatures and foes of my CR (15) and above, especially single-class spellcasters and some monsters with very powerful abilities (like the Nightwalker's Level 20 Greater Dispelling) - not only was i finding it hard to penetrate the enemy's SR and saving throws, my own buffs on my party were getting dispelled easily as well.

On the other hand, you can overcome the loss of caster level pretty well by either buffing yourself and staying out of immediate range (so as to be on the "low dispel priority" list) or by countering foes and threats of lower spell power than you. For example, lots of fiends have the ability to use unholy blight, teleport, etc at will - but their caster levels tend to be pretty low as well. You can dispel those rather easily, and save your party a bit of pain... you could take the offensive, and dispel your enemies' enchanted armor, weapons, or gear to suppress its magical propeties for a while, then cast Shatter to destroy them. chances are, the buffed-up warrior-type's gear won't have a very high caster level, and that his Will save to resist the shatter won't be too high either.

there are certain benefits to multiclassing - my character's final battle was against a blue dragon who blasted his lightning breath at me, i took no damage from it when i made my reflex save, due to my divine oracle "prescienct dodge" ability, and in return i used the planeshifter's plane shift ability to shunt both of us to the negative energy plane (where he killed me from damage output- my multiclassing did not give me too much HP though ).

another character was a shaman 6/ divine agent 9 - i lost 4 caster levels. at a CR 15 encounter i would be running about with level 10 spellcasting ability, which kinda sucked - but i was the key motivator for the story, because i received divine insight often (a special ability unique to the divine agent) and being an outsider (another divine agent ability) protected me from some special attacks here and there, varying from funky Oriental Adventures nerve strikes to scary spells. in 3.0, when you could become an outsider through polymorph if you were already one, it was also highly useful for assuming the forms of Planetars to go layeth the smackdown - something only possible through multiclassing.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that - you'll feel the sting. it's inevitable. but you'll also feel the joy of multiclassing, only problem is, there's so much attention out by the majority of the gaming world about caster levels and the power of the pure caster, that what you truly have looks small and weak in comparison. but...

when your rogue/ wizard evades a fireball, you'll be happy.

when your monk/ cleric with righteous might and bull's strength grapples a cornugon to death, you'll be happy.

when your paladin/ bard/ sorceror saves against nearly any effect that the DM can throw at you, you'll be happy. (and even happier still, when you use that high charisma and mixture of skills and spells to embellish the truth of what happened, and create a legend of your own immortality among the people...)

all these scenarios are specific ones, that rarely crop up in our thought processes when we make characters. pure casters are hot for offence, but when it comes down to nichecraft, to defence, and for just downright customization...

IMHO, multiclass can't be beat.

yours,
shao

 

[Golem2176]

I played an Orc Fighter/Cleric in the last game I played. For my ability scores I had rolled a 16 and an 18. I put the 18 in STR, and with the orc's +6 racial modifier, it came out to be a whopping 24. I had then put the 16 in my WIS scor, and it equalled out to be 14. So I was dishing out massive damage. I specialized in the Orc Double Axe and had many feats that made him a force to be reckoned with. When he became an 8th level Cleric he could dish out and take a world of hurt, be on the brink of collapse, then cast Cure Critical Wounds twice and be at 3/4 of his total hit poiunts. I gotta say, he rocked! I loved the character so much I had his character sheet framed and hung him on bedroom wall. I'v not played since then (2000). I hope my next character kicks as much @$$ as he did!

 

[Silveras]

In the meantime I have been toying with the idea of letting caster level stack just as BAB does. It would help points 2) and 3) when multiclassing 2 spellcaster classes but not when multiclassing a spellcaster with a non-spellcaster. Of course this is totally house rules and I don't want to hijackmy own thread, it's just to say that perhaps this could have been a minor fix to the problem, which seems to be a well known problem and could have been addressed by 3.5. I don't think it would have changed much, but at least it would have reduced the penalties.

Actually, this was discussed extensively on the WotC message boards as 3.5 was coming out. The designers weighed in to say that it *is* a problem, and they are aware of it, but fixing it would have been too big a change for 3.5. The best they could do was add the Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Warrior, and Arcane Trickster Prestige Classes to give multi-classed characters a "path" that developed the core of both sets of abilities.

Other players also discussed allowing caster levels to stack for purposes of penetrating SR and/or the overall effectiveness of the spells. There was no consensus reached before I lost track of the discussion, although there may have been after.

The problem is that many, many facets of spellcasting are wrapped up into one thing. BAB is just how likely you hit; it is not also a governor on how big a weapon you can wield or how much damage the weapon does. Caster level, on the other hand, governs how effective the spell is AND how potent a spell you can throw AND how likely it is to effect a creature (both through penetrating SR and through higher save DCs for higher level spells).

Don't forget also that some spells require caster level checks to be effective in other ways -- dispel magic, for example, and remove curse used against some (esp. 3rd party) curses.

Multi-classing remains fun; I do it frequently, despite knowing that I am sacrificing some spell power in doing so. But it also depends A LOT on the campaign.

Also, characters who are "mostly" non-spellcasters who pick up a level or two of spellcaster are MUCH more viable than spellcasters who pick up a level or two of non-spellcaster. A rogue with a few spells is a lot more effective than a wizard who can occasionally sneak attack for +1d6 (or +2d6). Why ? Because the wizard levels still give the mostly-Rogue more BAB, saves, and skill points (which are the Rogue's "core competencies"), while the Rogue levels add nothing to the mostly-wizard's "core competency", spellcasting. The mostly-wizard still gets SOMETHING, obviously, as s/he gets BAB, Saves, Skill Points, evasion, sneak attack, and perhaps more if s/he takes more levels. However, the bonuses the mostly-Wizard gets are not ones that fit into the character's role - spellcasting.

 

[Rel]

Good post, Silveras.

 

[Voadam]

Hi!




And by spending 3 Feats he could increase his caster level by 5 so that he was effectively casting on charakter level. This last one was the most important thing I think. If he hadn't cast on full level, the SR of opponents would have been impossible to punch through and there wouldn't have been a chance to dispel anything worthwile.
All in all, a straight wizard would have been stronger in spells but still would (most propably) have died a lot more often.

Kodam

What 3 feats?