D&D 5E Are Redemption Paladin Abilities Too Weak?

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I tried to address this question in the Redemption Paladin thread, but that thread is totally dominated by an alignment/paladin philosophy discussion and nobody seemed interested. So I'll try here.

I was initially really excited by this sub-class, both because I love the concept and the idea of no armor, but upon more sober reflection I think you give up a lot for...fluff. Overall it feels like you are sacrificing the general utility of other sub-classes in return for strength in a very specific roleplaying situation (namely, walking unarmored to a potentially dangerous parley).

I don't always see all the pros/cons/loopholes of various abilities (mellored, where are you?) but here's my take:

Bonus Spells: these are solid, and approximately as good as other sub-classes. No complaints here.

Armor of Peace: I love this conceptually, but it's most just a roleplaying benefit, not a mechanical one. I suppose there are some edge cases, such as situations where you can't wear armor or don't have it on, or if you want to be a stealthy paladin, but in general using it will result in a lower AC.

Warrior of Reconciliation: Again, fun/entertaining conceptually, but since you can't order them to attack it's not strictly better mechanically than just killing them. It's only real utility would seem to be for interrogation after a combat, rather than knocking them out and then using social skills or charm spells. And unless you want to cheese it by switching weapons for the killing blow, it forces you into doing less damage than a normal paladin as well.

I suppose you could use this ability as a free charm spell, if you don't mind doing the exact opposite of what the class fluff describes: the guard won't release your friend? Beat him into submission then command him to open the cell!

Emissary of Peace: This could have the occasional benefit to match the resource cost, but not a common occurrence. Maybe if you know you're not likely to be in combat that day you might burn it more willingly.

Rebuke the Violent: On the positive side, it's used reactively so you are unlikely to waste it. Like Divine Smite, you can wait for a crit. Ideally from somebody who does lots of damage. On the negative side, it's of minor value when fighting lots of enemies who do little damage, and it's utility is unpredictable.

Aura of Guardian: This can useful to save your friends but at a heavy price. It starts to have some nice synergy with level 15 and 20 abilities, but that's a lot of levels to wait.

Protective Spirit: This is the one clear, across-the-board, awesome ability.

Emissary of Redemption: Needs to be clarified whether the damage counts as you dealing damage (which would mean this only works once against each opponent) and also whether "half the damage it dealt to you" means half of what it rolled or half of what you received, because if the latter then you're only reflecting 1/4 damage, at the cost of not being able to actually attack. This is another one that is really flavorful and distinct, but seems to have limited actual utility.

I do really like the trade-off between Strength and Dexterity. There's no good way to min-max that one, which is as it should be, imo. I think the two possible ways I would play this would be to multiclass Monk, or to carry both a staff and a greatsword. Great Weapon Fighting either way.

Thoughts?
 

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I feel like the class has it pros and cons like any other Oath. Some of these you may have to think about differently to see their worth.

Spells: like you said very solid picks, and would love to have them on my guy.

Armor of Peace: Absolutely amazing ability. AC is 16 + dex mod when you aren't wearing armor. This will give you a :):):):) ton more armor than wearing heavy armor - hands down the best ability on this list. We just have to think of it as a different type of paladin, instead of strength and heavy armor go dex. If you aren't multiclassing you don't have to put a point into strength at all. So that means what we can do is dex for our armor and weapon damage.

To compare the normal paladin with redemption dex paladin. Lets say a level 3 paladin somehow got plate armor, they have 18 ac + 2 from a shield having a total of 20 ac. They can't increase this except with the use of magical items. Dex redemption at level 3 would be 16 + 3 (dex of 16) for a total of 19. You can increase yours with just putting more into dex. Both have the ability to take Defense or Mariner fighting style for another +1 to ac. Dex can also do Duel Wielder to add +1 ac if they wanted to. So both can have an AC of 21 at level 3, heavy armor wont be able to increase their value unless it is through magic but the dex based one can.

Warrior of Reconciliation: Agree with you, this one is weak. Mostly fluff and I probably wouldn't use it.

Channel Divinity: In all Oaths they have a decent channel divinity and one that is situational or just not as good. I will say these may not be as strong as the other Oaths, but I actual see myself using abilities more often than theirs. The reason is because the others are combat only abilities and I try to save them for a strong opponent - meaning they don't get used often. These are more situational and can be used outside of combat. In combat I see someone get a big hit, I use it. No combat, :):):):) it might as well use it.

Aura: pros and cons like you said. I like this ability since it can save a friends life, and like you said good synergy with protective spirit and emissary of redemption.

Protective Spirit: Like you said great ability.

Emissary: Like you said needs clarification on both the reflected damage back ending it, and the 1/2 or 1/4 damage. If it doesn't end with the reflected damage back it is still a decent ability - you can focus one target or just be a healer with resistance. The added damage is a plus, would be nice to be 1/2 the damage not 1/4 but I guess that is up to the DM or if they ever clarify it.

This was actually going to be my next character, an ex pirate that is seeking redemption for his past crimes. Going full paladin, with dex and cha, two weapon fighting. At level 4, I should have 21 or 22 ac depending on the race I pick. Have the Mariner fighting style (since paladins can't get two weapon fighting) with Duel Wielder feat. Won't do as much damage as Great Weapon Master, but it will give me higher AC and is a fun character to play as - not many dex paladins out there.

(First post on this site so I have no clue if formatting is correct)
 

To compare the normal paladin with redemption dex paladin. Lets say a level 3 paladin somehow got plate armor, they have 18 ac + 2 from a shield having a total of 20 ac. They can't increase this except with the use of magical items. Dex redemption at level 3 would be 16 + 3 (dex of 16) for a total of 19. You can increase yours with just putting more into dex. Both have the ability to take Defense or Mariner fighting style for another +1 to ac. Dex can also do Duel Wielder to add +1 ac if they wanted to. So both can have an AC of 21 at level 3, heavy armor wont be able to increase their value unless it is through magic but the dex based one can.

I've mostly seen paladins taking Defense style. If so, this would be AC 21, not 20. Redemption paladin loses two points of AC in this case, and (as you note) still has to invest in Str anyway if he wants to multiclass. Note that Armor of Peace is not compatible with defense style since defense style requires armor or shield and Armor of Peace disallows armor or shield; it may or may not be compatible with Mariner style if there ever is a Mariner style outside of UA.

Unless you're planning on using a lot of ranged weapons, you'd be better off just pumping Str per usual and wearing heavy armor, with Armor of Peace as strictly a backup option.
 

Spells

shield A great option, especially for a front line. Effectively gets better as you level.
sleep Not a bad spell itself, but as a half-caster, you won't have the spell levels to keep the "damage" rolls at a reasonable level. Still could be to finish off weakened enemies, and then bludgon them with Warrior of Reconciliation.

hold person A good spell, but your DC is likely to be a few points lower than others.
ray of enfeeblement Just a bad spell.

Counterspell As a half-caster paladin can't trade away slots as readily. Still could be worth countering a fireball if your group is caught in it.
hypnotic pattern A great spell particularly with paladins who have trouble with hordes.

Otiluke’s resilient sphere A fun utility spell that can find uses.
stoneskin With +cha to saves, along with resilient con, this can survive long enough to be worth using.

hold monster A good spell, but 9/10 your better off saving your precious slots for wall of force instead.
wall of force No-save way to cut off enemies. Another good option against hordes.


Armor of Peace: Effectively +4 initiative, and a bonus action attack (as compared to a normal sword and board paladin with defensive style). Pretty good, though make the first 2 levels a bit rougher, it also makes Cha a bit more difficult to boost.
Warrior of Reconciliation At first look this seems pretty good, at second, there are no Dex based bludgeoning weapons. On third look, you can KO with a short sword, heal 1 HP with lay on hands, and hit them with a mace until you charm them. 42 seconds later, you heal it 1 HP, tell it to stand still, and smack it again.

I could just see a paladin followed by a wagon full of unconscious people that he wakes up and beats into submission, straps a bomb to, and sends into the enemy camp, all while preaching about peace, innocence, and patience...

CD Emissary of Peace A short-lived utility, but sometimes that's all you will need.
Rebuke the Violent Past Low damage, but as a reaction. Considering that no other paladin get's any level 3 features, and you get 2, there's no loss here.

Aura of the Guardian Weaker than most other paladins 7's, but still useful. Improves with with protective spirit

Protective Spirit A decent amount of extra HP, though only working in combat keeps it from being too good.

Emissary of Redemption At first glance this seems amazing, but it's only good for 1 attack per enemy, after which it piddly (1/4) damage back and it breaks. Net result is pretty minimal against multi-attackers, though it still helps against an opening dragon breath and hordes.



So overall some great spells, a litterally abusive at-will charm, and some decent features. So... blue.
 

Yeah, mellored covers the issue with Armor of Peace: there are no Dex-based bludgeoning weapons so if you go for that high AC you end up weak in combat.
 

Yeah, mellored covers the issue with Armor of Peace: there are no Dex-based bludgeoning weapons so if you go for that high AC you end up weak in combat.
I wouldn't say weak. TWF with the same AC as a shield is pretty good. And it works with paladin's improved smite.

Also, don't think of warrior of reconciliation as a combat effect. Just carry a mace for after-battle auto-charm.

The downside is the weaker channel divinity.
 

Armor of Peace: Absolutely amazing ability. AC is 16 + dex mod when you aren't wearing armor. This will give you a :):):):) ton more armor than wearing heavy armor - hands down the best ability on this list. We just have to think of it as a different type of paladin, instead of strength and heavy armor go dex.
Exactly -- and welcome to the boards!

Warrior of Reconciliation At first look this seems pretty good, at second, there are no Dex based bludgeoning weapons. On third look, you can KO with a short sword, heal 1 HP with lay on hands, and hit them with a mace until you charm them. 42 seconds later, you heal it 1 HP, tell it to stand still, and smack it again.
ha ha. But you don't need a mace: just punch your way to being charming. :)
 



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