Are Spells Balanced by Level?

[jasamcarl]

Then what are the levels for?

What's the difference between a 1st-level Wizard spell and a 2nd-level Wizard spell then?

So then spells are intended to be balanced by level. And, again, I ask: Which spells have you found most popular (and powerful) at each level? Magic Missiles and Fireballs certainly seem quite powerful and quite popular.

Obviously if you raise the cost (level) of some spells, you weaken the class that casts those spells. If that's not your goal, to weaken the class, there's an obvious cure: you lower the cost (level) of other spells.

Any spell that fits the theme you'd like (e.g. Bestow Curse) that never gets used should have its cost (level) reduced -- just as any spell that gets used all the time (e.g. Fireball) should have its cost (level) increased.

KM already answered this for me, but the difference between a second and first level mage is the number of times they can cast magic missile, etc. Levels act as a good method of trading out combat effectivness for utility. And you misunderstand my point, utility spells are not underpowered, they are powerful in certain situations. What you want to create is more of a straight up utility wizard; the problem with that is that would make a very 'passive' class. One can assume combat will be a prominant part of most campaign sessions; that can't be said for those situations that call for many of the spells considered underpowered. What you will have is a wizard dominates many scenarios because the dm designed it specifically towards the classes strengths. Every module or session would have to be tweaked for the wizard.

 

[gfunk]

We all know certain spells are vastly more popular than other spells at the same level. So my first question is: Which spells have you found most popular (and powerful) at each level?

Using spells from WOTC sources only (except FR, because we all know that every one of them would make this list anyway)
Most powerful/popular spells and any relevant house rules:

1st
1. Magic Missile -- only a real problem if you can cast it many times a round (at high levels, haste, quickened, etc. or Spellweaver from MM2).

2. Identify -- we house-ruled this to identify every property of a magic item and tossed Analyze Dweomer.

2nd
1. Invisibility -- many DMs seem to have a hard time handling this

2. False Life -- stacks with Endurance ('nuff said)

3rd
1. Haste -- very powerful spell; can be quickened at high levels; AC bonus stacks with everything

2. Fireball/L.Bolt -- with the appropriate metamagic feats (Empower, Energy Substitution, Sculpt) it will be the only damaging spell you'll ever need


4th
1. Polymorph Other -- as written, a ridiculously overpowered spell even with the errata; after my PC kept turning the party into Trolls my DM banned this spell. Sure the DM can do what the PCs do, but who the hell wants to fight trolls, stone giants, and annis hags all the time?

2. Improved Invisibility -- see Invisibility

5th
1. Ghostform -- possibly the most broken spell ever published by a WOTC source. My PC became unkillable with this spell and it was sapping the fun out of the game so we banned it.

2. Wall of Force -- ambiguous description can cause problems. No save means you can put up a hemispherical wall around foes without problem?

6th

No problems here

7th

1. Simulacrum -- what the hell were they smoking when they made this spell? Lawyers could have a field day with this one.

8th

No problems here

9th

1. Gate -- who wouldn't take this spell w/o house-rules?

2. Time Stop -- see Gate.

3. Shapechange -- see Gate.

4. Hide Life -- spell description should read as follows:

For 5000 xp, you become immune to everything with the following exceptions:
1) Sphere of Annihilation
2) Imprisonment spell
3) Temporal Stasis spell
4) Trap the Soul spell
5) Petrification

 

[gfunk]

Double post

 

[jasamcarl]

Re: Re: Are Spells Balanced by Level?

Using spells from WOTC sources only (except FR, because we all know that every one of them would make this list anyway)
Most powerful/popular spells and any relevant house rules:

1st
1. Magic Missile -- only a real problem if you can cast it many times a round (at high levels, haste, quickened, etc. or Spellweaver from MM2).

2. Identify -- we house-ruled this to identify every property of a magic item and tossed Analyze Dweomer.

2nd
1. Invisibility -- many DMs seem to have a hard time handling this

2. False Life -- stacks with Endurance ('nuff said)

3rd
1. Haste -- very powerful spell; can be quickened at high levels; AC bonus stacks with everything

2. Fireball/L.Bolt -- with the appropriate metamagic feats (Empower, Energy Substitution, Sculpt) it will be the only damaging spell you'll ever need


4th
1. Polymorph Other -- as written, a ridiculously overpowered spell even with the errata; after my PC kept turning the party into Trolls my DM banned this spell. Sure the DM can do what the PCs do, but who the hell wants to fight trolls, stone giants, and annis hags all the time?

2. Improved Invisibility -- see Invisibility

5th
1. Ghostform -- possibly the most broken spell ever published by a WOTC source. My PC became unkillable with this spell and it was sapping the fun out of the game so we banned it.

2. Wall of Force -- ambiguous description can cause problems. No save means you can put up a hemispherical wall around foes without problem?

6th

No problems here

7th

1. Simulacrum -- what the hell were they smoking when they made this spell? Lawyers could have a field day with this one.

8th

No problems here

9th

1. Gate -- who wouldn't take this spell w/o house-rules?

2. Time Stop -- see Gate.

3. Shapechange -- see Gate.

4. Hide Life -- spell description should read as follows:

For 5000 xp, you become immune to everything with the following exceptions:
1) Sphere of Annihilation
2) Imprisonment spell
3) Temporal Stasis spell
4) Trap the Soul spell
5) Petrification

Your analysis is a bit simplistic. Polymorph other dissipates the effects of magic items by default; at the levels where is can come into multiple uses simultaneously, i fighter can do well enough without it. It can improve a mage sure, but for that the mage to use the physical stats of the altered form requires that they spend an action on that as oppossed to casting spells; they become a second rate fighter and waste a precious spell doing it; wow.

As to those high-level spells, at that level almost every creature you will face has an extreme SR as well as high saves; if they get through, they will have an impact otherwise...this affects timestop as well, as what are you going to do with those free actions other than buff yourself; it improves the mages chances of surviving and affecting one combat, but the fighters are still likely to dominate. For the same reason invisibility becomes less effective during high levels..anything else. You see to be juding the spells based upon their Wiz Bang aspects as oppossed to assessing their ingame use through an examination of highlevel mechanics.

But anyway

 

[gfunk]

Re: Re: Re: Are Spells Balanced by Level?

Your analysis is a bit simplistic. Polymorph other dissipates the effects of magic items by default;

Not quite, you need to read the Polymorph Other spell description. Here is the relevant section:

"If the new form uses equipment (fey, giant, humanoid, some outsiders, many shapechangers, many undead creatures), the subject’s equipment changes to match the new form and retains its properties."

In other words if you polymorph your fighter friends into Trolls (for example) they gain the following:
1) + 7 natural armor
2) Str and Con increase to 23 base (w/o applying enhancements)
3) They become Large and have 10' reach
4) They gain 90' darkvision

This is an incredible boost for *any* player character, regardless of class. In addition to this you keep all of your equipment, it remains functional and you can cast spells normally *and* there is no longer a penalty for disorientation. Oh, did I mention that the duration was permanent?

As to those high-level spells, at that level almost every creature you will face has an extreme SR as well as high saves; if they get through, they will have an impact otherwise...this affects timestop as well, as what are you going to do with those free actions other than buff yourself

This of course depends on how you interpret Time Stop. Without a house-rule, you can dump a bunch of instantenous spells which will all go off at the end of the Time Stop.

Also, extreme saves and SR will not help you when PCs gate in Solars and or Shapechange into Tarrasques.

it improves the mages chances of surviving and affecting one combat, but the fighters are still likely to dominate.

Uh oh, you're not one of those guys who clings to class parity are you? Let me just say I believe after about 11th level or so, a wizard/sorcerer will annihilate a fighter-type of equivalent level. We keep 'em around b/c of beholders . .. .

 

[coyote6]

I ask: Which spells have you found most popular (and powerful) at each level? Magic Missiles and Fireballs certainly seem quite powerful and quite popular.

Actually, fireball hasn't been very popular in my campaigns. It's been cast all of three times, IIRC -- once on a ship's sails, once to finish off some large skeletons & clear out a web, and once in an actual fight. Haste, fly, and lightning bolt, have been more popular (in that order, too).

I think haste is a little too good, think harm needs a save, and am mostly fine with the others* as they currently stand.

*(That's other PH spells; spells from supplements [WotC or non-WotC] vary widely, IMO, from "Boy, that's weak" to "Heh. You want that spell? I prefer cash, US currency only, in small denominations, please.")

 

[EarthsShadow]

After reading these posts I also agree that the spells should be scalable as they gain levels, for those that don't scale up. If the system was somehow changed to this, there wouldn't be a need to have as many spells and we would see more useful spells made. That said, the only real house rule we made was for Identify, which we made a 3rd level spell because (and this is my opinion) I don't feel a wizard just making in the world should be able to identify magical properties within magical items until that wizard/magic user gains enough experience to be able to discertain what he/she is looking for. Now, a 5th level wizard, that makes sense. 1st level wizard, nope. They gotta go to a higher level wizard to get it identified and spend some gold for it.

As for psionics, you could make them scalable, and I guess if you did that, you would have your scalable magic system with power points...go figure.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I've got a homebrew low-magic world that only uses Fighters, Rogues, a variant non-magic Ranger and the Adept. The only way it was balanced was to greatly increase the price of magic items. Then it worked fine.


I'm of the opinion that spells are countered by magic items. This is because magic items tend to help non-magic classes more than they help magic classes. A 15th level Wizard says ho-hum to Boots of Flying, while a Fighter thinks they are divine.

How this relates to spell level: If you are going to bump up spells to new levels, you are really just turning all casters into adepts. (Since they would probably now receive lightning bolt at 8th level.)

To balance this, the only thing you can do to make casters on par with non-magic classes is to limit magic items severely. I'm talking like five times the DMG prices. A longsword+2 would have to be worth 40,000 gps, just so the casters remain effective.
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There are benefits to doing the above, however. Players have less access to buffs and healing. They also don't even get Raise Dead until 16th level. That makes the game a lot more different than plain old DnD.

The one downfall is calculating CRs. You have to add about 5 to each CR in the MM. Even orcs stay viable as enemies until late levels.
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[mmadsen]

I think the spells are balanced by class, yes.

What does that mean? And how does it help us decide which spells are 1st-level Wizard spells versus which are 2nd- or 3rd-level Wizard spells? Or which are 1st-level Cleric spells versus 2nd- or 3rd-level Cleric spells?

It's not so much that Fireball is too powerful for 3rd level as it is that a 5th level wizard or 6th level sorcerer should be able to cast Fireball.

If 5th-level Wizards systematically choose Fireball over their other 3rd-level spell options, that implies that Fireball is more powerful than those other 3rd-level spell options, right?

Unless we actively want to make Fireball more common than other spells -- unless that's a goal in itself -- shouldn't we reduce its power or increase its cost until it's balanced with other spells?

(Note: Replace "Fireball" and "3rd-level" with whatever popular spell at whatever level makes sense to you.)

Basically, spellcasting classes get a list of special abilities at each level that they can select from to do things. Clerics get a lot of special abilities, but only a few uses per day. Wizard get a few special abilities, and a few uses per day (but get bonus feats to make up for it), Sorcerers get few special abilities, but MANY uses per day (and a slightly delayed progression).

Right, but what does that have to do with which spells are at which level?

A 5th level cleric shouldn't be able to Fireball like a 5th level wizard, because the classes fill different niches in the party. So if the cleric wants to fireball, they should have to pay more (in the form of waiting more levels) before they can do it.

I'm fine with that. Different classes fill different niches with different "flavors". As I said before, if you want a particular spell to get cast more often -- for thematic or "flavor" reasons -- by all means, reduce its level. Or, if you don't want that spell cast often, increase its level.

Is there some reason though that we want Magic Missile and Fireball to be much more common than Flaming Sphere? (Or Sleep? Or Color Spray? Or whatever?)

 

[mmadsen]

KM already answered this for me, but the difference between a second and first level mage is the number of times they can cast magic missile, etc.

Um, sure, but the question was: if spells aren't balanced by level but by class, what does that mean, and what then is the difference between a 1st-level Wizard spell and a 2nd-level Wizard spell.

Levels act as a good method of trading out combat effectivness for utility.

What does that mean?

And you misunderstand my point, utility spells are not underpowered, they are powerful in certain situations.

We must be on completely different wavelengths, because I don't even know what point you're saying I misunderstood. What did I say to mischaracterize your argument?

My point was that any spell that isn't popular should probably be dropped a level to make it a more viable choice. Any spell that's extremely popular should probably be raised a level to reflect its obvious value.

What you want to create is more of a straight up utility wizard...

Huh?