Are Spells Balanced by Level?

[WizarDru]

Squire James hits upon a point I neglected, and very effectively illustrates it, I think. The level of a spell is more than just being balanced against other spells, but also determines it's utility over the life of the PC.

Magic Missle starts out as a must-have spell for your average wizard or sorceror, unless they're choosing a specific concept. Being able to apply metamagic feats is a serious factor for some spells (fear the maximized, empowered fireball, for example). The issue of applying spells to items is another issue to be considered...and the value of magic items associated with said spells.

None of which is a problem, as long as you consider all these factors when making a change.

Another think to consider is that multiclassing and some prestige classes will put reorganized spells to different use. A SpellSword or Arcane Archer, for example, would absolutely drool at the concept of a 1st level Bestow Curse, while a pure sorceror or wizard (as SJ mentions above) would turn pale at the thought of using it until later levels, when better options may be available. A straight 'turtled-up' cleric would use a 1st level Bestow Curse in a heartbeat, as well.

It's also important to note that some spells are popular just because they're archetypal, such as fireball. I definitely agree a spell like Haste is little too good, as it seems to give a lot for very little. Shield is similar in this regard, and a few others. Some spells are too good, perhaps, but others are necessary to survive, particularly for their primary intended users.

 

[ashockney]

Overused...overpowered...

I agree with many of the posters, that many of the "out of balance" spells, are only that way because of little unique nuances to the spell, which if tweaked, would make the spell appropriate for it's given level. Here's my list to throw in the fray:

0:
Daze - Loses action! No save! Hello?

1st:
Shield: should be +3, all facing
Mage Armor: Duration and/or +1/3 levels (max +7)
True Strike: +20? 1st Level? Why not +5 or +10?
Sleep/Color Spray: until about 4th or 5th level. Up to then, it's an absolute show-stopper.
Expeditious Retreat: They didn't say double, did they? Oh, c'mon! Monks? Hello!?!? +5' move/level (max +30').


Not overpowered:
Magic Missile - this is a staple spell, so is used often, but anyone scared by 1d4+1, has bigger concerns. Clearly the tough part to this spell is it's no save component. Put a no save spell in at ANY level, and you'll see it taken with some degree of regularity. (see Ice Storm, Otto's)

2nd:
Web: Huge AoE and significant impact, increase level
Invisibility: very little can contend with at this level (implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Bull's/Cat's/Endurance - I hate to say it, because I love them too, but they're just used too much. Either knock their durations down or knock the ability to stack them up...ie, you can only use one enhancement item, and one enhancement spell at a time.
Knock: Thief? What thief?
Levitate: Too soon, increase level(implications to magic items, however, if changed)

3rd:
Fireball: AoE is HUGE, especially for the level
but damage is fine
Lightning Bolt: see above, not quite as bad on AoE
Hold Person: What does this spell make ANY other de-buffer or "fear" spell look like? Why would I enfeeble, curse, feeblemind, hopeless, shaken, or anything of the sort when I you completely remove you as a threat? Increase level.
Blink: Remove the ghost touch twink.
Fly: this is very difficult to contend with tactically at 5th level, increase it's level(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Haste: Actions AND +4 to AC that stacks with everything? Twink it or increase the level.
Slow: AOE, otherwise great

4th:
Evard's: What a mess...remove it, or change completely.
(Improved Invisibility: It's worth noting that this spell is fine, b/c of the big limitation on duration.)
Phantasmal Killer: Insta-kill, needs cap
Fear: AoE, wow. Increase level, or decrease AoE.
Poly Other: only if you "twink" the interpretion to include keeping items while morphed

5th:
Hold Monster: see Hold Person, increase level.
Teleport: this is a little early, and makes it difficult to plan for(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Trans Rock/Mud in conjunction with Trans Mud/Rock
Honorable Mention: Firebrand from Magic of Faerun, only b/c of targeting/AoE

6th:
Disintegrate: insta-kill, needs cap
Mass Haste: extra actions and +4 to AC (not as bad for the level, though, could easily be 7th)
Tenser's Transform: s/b BAB equals +1/HD, not adds BAB (especially in instances of fighters/monsters)

7th:
Finger of Death: Insta-kill, needs cap.
Teleport w/o Error: still too early, I like Etherealness here...note that targeted T-ports to only a specific location could be lower level, (implications to magic items, however, if changed)...

8th:
Otto's Irresistable Dance: no save on something other than damage...very bad, twink it.
Horrid Wilting: Damage type, make it resistable.

9th:
Wail of the Banshee: AoE insta-kill, needs cap.

There are some implications of a "lower magic world" in my list, but I think it meets the requirements of "If you moved these spells, would they still be taken at their new levels (or fix the spell and keep it at the same level)...I think the answer would be yes in all cases.

 

[WizarDru]

Re: Overused...overpowered...

I agree with many of the posters, that many of the "out of balance" spells, are only that way because of little unique nuances to the spell, which if tweaked, would make the spell appropriate for it's given level. Here's my list to throw in the fray:

0:
Daze - Loses action! No save! Hello?

Well, honestly, I've never seen it cast in a game I'm in. I think you're forgetting the subtle nuances of a Close range (i.e. requires getting the attention of a monster at 30 feet), the fact that it merely delays them for one round (during which you're either running, letting the melees do their thing, or casting the spell you would have cast, if you hadn't cast Daze). Add to that the fact it doesn't work on creatures 6HD and up, and it's level 0. It's a good spell to use to back up the fighters, but it's not really all that powerful...and become useless fairly quickly.

Shield: should be +3, all facing
Mage Armor: Duration and/or +1/3 levels (max +7)
True Strike: +20? 1st Level? Why not +5 or +10?
Sleep/Color Spray: until about 4th or 5th level. Up to then, it's an absolute show-stopper.
Expeditious Retreat: They didn't say double, did they? Oh, c'mon! Monks? Hello!?!? +5' move/level (max +30').

Shield: not a bad idea. Certainly simpler. Mage Armor: Disagree...it's a necessary part of a mage's arsenal, since wearing armor is so disagreeable. True Strike and Expeditious Retreat are both PERSONAL range. The monk isn't getting it unless he multiclassed. It sounds like you're trying to make the spellcasters, and wizard/sorcerors ineffective in general. It's a matter of debate how overpowered they become in double-digits...but I think weakening them at low level doesn't help that issue.

As for spells like Web and Fireball, and their large area of effect...you forget that they can't be controlled. Fireball is useless in close melee in a 5'-wide corridor. Web can backfire too, in the wrong situation. That AoE cuts both ways. Invisibility's attack and lose it clause make it good for a suprise attack, and then not much more. Magic items are a whole 'nother debate. Levitate, like Daze, is one I never see anyone cast., unless they have a very specific application...it never gets memorized ahead of time.

The Buff spells, I can see your point about, and I'm of two minds on the subject. I'm not sure how I feel about them, ultimately.

Knock: Thief? What thief?

Trapped door? Automatically sprung? Mage? What mage?

Hold Person: What does this spell make ANY other de-buffer or "fear" spell look like? Why would I enfeeble, curse, feeblemind, hopeless, shaken, or anything of the sort when I you completely remove you as a threat? Increase level.

How about because all those spells can work a creature of large or greater size, and Hold Person only works on medium or smaller humanoids? Ogres don't fear Hold Person, for example, and they're only CR 2.

Fly: this is very difficult to contend with tactically at 5th level, increase it's level(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Haste: Actions AND +4 to AC that stacks with everything? Twink it or increase the level.

Fly, maybe. Haste, agreed.

Phantasmal Killer: Insta-kill, needs cap
Fear: AoE, wow. Increase level, or decrease AoE.
Poly Other: only if you "twink" the interpretion to include keeping items while morphed

Poly, perhaps. While I'm not keen on the save-or-die spells, they start cropping up, and there's so many of them, you'll need to completely revamp upper-level spells to make it consistent. Saves are still there, and limitations on usage.

Hold Monster: see Hold Person, increase level.
Teleport: this is a little early, and makes it difficult to plan for(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Trans Rock/Mud in conjunction with Trans Mud/Rock

Wow, I've never seen anyone claim mud/rock was overpowered. Hold monster still allows a save, just like Hold Person. Increasing the level just raises the DC, it doesn't address the problem. Teleport is just one of many spells that give vast transport abilities to players. Wind Walk, for example. At high levels, players are plane-jumping jet setters. It's still pretty limited. If we're talking B-S-T problems, that's another discussion, too.

Disintegrate: insta-kill, needs cap
Mass Haste: extra actions and +4 to AC (not as bad for the level, though, could easily be 7th)
Tenser's Transform: s/b BAB equals +1/HD, not adds BAB (especially in instances of fighters/monsters)

Disintegrate's a FORT save, meaning tough beasties don't much care about it at the level that it's being used at. Mass Haste, maybe. Tenser's Transform...cannot cast spells, and you become a fighter...again, range Personal. Whoopie.

I see what you're driving at, I just don't necessarily agree. Taken in the context of what characters are doing at these levels, these spells don't strike me as overpowered...often they're survival equipment. Of course, your analysis was only on WIZ/SOR, but I think we can agree the same applies elsewhere, right (*cough* HARM *cough*)?

 

[ashockney]

I didn't even dive into the Divine spells, although Harm is clearly at the top of the list, it needs both a hp cap AND a saving throw added to it, in my opinion. Actually, most of the other spells in the cleric domain I have less of a problem with, perhaps with the exception of the "hold" spells and "buff" spells that I addressed already under their arcane versions.

I saw Daze ABUSED in a campaign, that's why it made my list. Give it a try, and throw it on a 1st level shaman against your PC's the next time their fighting a bunch of goblins. Throw DAZE on the fighter for a few rounds and see what I mean...

That AoE cuts both ways.

This is true. Good point.

How about because all those spells can work a creature of large or greater size

The operating theory here is "I'm giving access to a higher level power to you earlier because it has a limitation on it." Forget that, that's game imbalancing. Spells that force opponents to completely lose actions should be higher level. If you need to "compensate" then allow them to affect more creatures at the appropriate level, but I could make a pretty good arguement why you don't need to do that (comparing how much damage it would take to incapacitate an opponent vs. how quickly a "hold" spell incapacitates an opponent).

Increasing the level just raises the DC, it doesn't address the problem.

I think it addresses the problem, by putting "insta-hold" spells on par with "insta-kill" spells. They all "incapacitate" your opponent, and will most likely put an end to a fight early. I think it is acceptable to have spells that are powerful enough to do this, but they need to be of the appropriate level (6th - 9th).

...again, range Personal. Whoopie.

All those range personal spells I mention are the one's that are overpowered. I think it is a fallacious arguement to say the spell isn't too tough, because I'm throwing it on a "wimp". I've seen WAY too many uses of all of these spells on potions, scrolls, tokens, rings of spell storing, and multi-classed characters that simply added up to abuse. Fix the spell, you fix the problem.

My take on Levitate, Invis, Fly, T-port, and so in is simply that they all seem to be available rather early. B-S-T is a problem too, and I've hit it from both ends with my recommendations. Ultimately, I don't think anyone would complain if they couldn't become invisible...at 3rd Level! Think about the real world implications of such things. These are all highly complex things, that would require siginificant resources to accomplish. I think they all belong in a fantasy setting, simply in the hands of more powerful people than random low-level guys who are walking around interacting on a daily basis.

 

[robgmsft]

ashockney - I'd love to see your edits on these spells. What level should they be? What cap? What AOE? Can you post a recommended errata?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I dunno...this still sounds like a lot of "I don't want mages to be as powerful as other classes at low levels" kind of whining.

I could be VEEEEERY wrong. I probably am.

The reason Fireball and Magic Missle are popular isn't because they're overpowered. It's because they are effective damage-dealers in a battle. And most characters choose things that help them survive or help them kill over things that help them make ropes do a lil' jig.

Arcane casters often fill the role of heavy damage-dealers. They're the ones cutting the big guys down to size, and some of the only ones that can deal with a lot of little critters at once. They need spells like Fireball and Magic Missile to be able to fill this niche. If you start to weaken these powers, you start to weaken a class that is cast in the role of explosives expert.

It'd be kinda analagous to saying: "What?! A Greatsword is only a Martial weapon? What the hell? All Fighters who want to deal damage in combat should be using a Greatsword! Quick, increase it's cost so that they're not reliant on it! Make them use weaker stuff instead! Greatswords should be Exotic!"

By bumping up the levels of these spells it largely forces the caster to say "well, I'll make ropes dance, because I can't do anything useful."

Similarly, by making the Greatsword exotic, it would be forcing fighters who wanted to optimize their damage potential to not do that. Whoopee. Longsword-and-shield tme.

The spells are popular because of the niche the arcane caster fills, not because there's something too good about them. Any time you have an option to go with something that hurts things or helps yourself over something that...say....makes pudding...as an adventurer, you want to kill and live, not make frickin' pudding.

Again, to use a Fighter analogy: "Why doesn't everyone go with Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave? Or the Whirlwind Attack chain? Or the Shot feats (if they're ranged). Obviously, because every fighter chooses these feats, they must be too good, and thus they must be bumped up to compensate for their goodness."

A Fighter who doesn't go with a chain like that isn't maximizing his butt-whoppin' powers. Likewise, a wizard who opts not to cast magic missile is loosing out on a portion of his class's *point*: to cast the spells that make the peoples fall down.

I'm playing a Sorcerer without Magic Missile, and I still have fun. But I am sacrificing a good chunk of the entire niche of the class. I've turned him into a self-buffer, using Sorcerer for flavor purposes more than for big spells (he'd probably make a better Cleric, if he wanted buffs...). I've taken him out of his specialization, and, of course, he's suffering for it, as I very much expected. Sorcerers aren't supposed to buff things. They're supposed to kill things.

Basically: just because something's popular doesn't mean it's overpowered. Just because fighters like using swords or rogues like hiding or clerics like healing doesn't make swords, the hide skill, or healing overpowered. It just means that it gives the player a power that is, in most campaigns, more useful than others. In most campaigns, zappin' a foe and makin' him keel over is more useful than, say, a divination. If you want the spells to be more rarely chosen, it's a campaign issue -- change the campaign to be intrigue-based, or maze-based, without that many things with hit points to blow up. Be sure to warn your players. You'll probably find more divinations and enchantments because they'll be more useful.

It just so happens that most campaigns include a healthy dose of butt-kickin', and if an arcane caster can't do that, what's the point of having an arcane caster around at all?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Am I a threadkiller or was that just a really good point?

 

[Celebrim]

I think it was a good point, but I really don't have the energy to argue this again.

ashockney made a thoughtful post, but essentially he wants to reduce or elimenate the ability of a single spell to dramatically alter a combat. He takes essentially every popular spell and suggests bumping up the level because he says, even if they were of higher level, they would still be taken - which is true. He acts as if this is proof that they need to be higher level.

It's not.

The only thing that it proves is that the power of a spell caster is dependent upon the spells that are provided to them. By bumping up the spells a level or two, you basically say 'A spell caster of X level should only be as powerful as a spell caster of X-2 level (or some such)'. I would argue that any spell which is taken regularly would continue to be taken no matter its level if no other spell existed of the same or lower level which replaced it. This is simply because spells that are taken regularly are taken regularly because they fulfill a niche that nothing else does. If 'Dispel Magic' was a 9th level spell, would you take it? If 'Greater Dispel' or something similar didn't exist, then yes you'd take it in a heart beat. You'd probably be looking forward to it as much as any other 9th level spell. Does this mean 'Dispel Magic' is broken as a 3rd level spell?

He is essentially rebalancing the spells for a lower magic campaign, and decreasing the utility of spellcasters.

Also, he has a tendancy to look at spells solely from a 'PC perspective'. The best spells for a PC to throw at an NPC are not necessarily the best spells for a NPC to throw at a PC. NPC's who intend to survive have to worry about chipping away at PC defences and getting in and out. An NPC throws 'Feeblemind' instead of 'Hold Person', because the effect is permenent and requires a significant resource investment to cure. The NPC may find 'Hold Person' useful, but they still have the rest of the party to deal with and probably will need to flee at some point to challenge the party at a latter point. The PC's figure that if the Hold Person works, the fight is over and one villain can be chalked off the list.

Personally, I think that AoE damaging type spells are not all that big of a deal anymore. Monster HP's have increased, saving throws are often easier (unless the wizard really focuses, and in that case Evocation isn't necessarily the best school to focus in), and damage has been capped. Gone are the days when 20th level wizards fireball would kill virtually every creature that failed its saving throw. I'm not sure that if I played a wizard, especially a Twink Wizard, that I'd ever memorize fireball. When I twink out my NPC Wizards, I'm often inclined to drop Evocation as a school entirely.

And I've been playing this game for too long to worry about levitate, fly, invisibility, teleport and the like as being game breaking. Heck, we might as well mention Tensor's Floating Disk and Unseen Servant in the same breath, as every experienced Wizard player worth his salt know how to use these to 'frustrate' a DM.

 

[Dragonblade]

Fireball is not that powerful a spell.

At 5th level a wizard can do 5d6 damage. My fighter with Str 20 with a great axe and weapon specialization does around 1d12 +7 damage. More if the axe is magical. My fighter can dish that damage out every round. The 5th level mage gets maybe 3 fireballs a day.

At higher levels fireball does more damage but all the opponents are likely to have high enough saves and magical fire protections, etc. that they won't take the full damage of the spell. Likewise, the fighters also will have more attacks, doing more damage and can do it indefinitely whereas the wizard will run out of fireballs.

So the game seems pretty balanced to me. Just because a spell is popular doesn't mean its too powerful.

 

[Kage Tenjin]

I'm currently playing a high level wizard. Fireball hasn't been memorized in many levels. Combat evenually gets too crowed, too quickly for any real AoE spells to be useful. Chain lighting and blow-thru metor swarms are much more effective to kill opponents without hurting your party.


Oh, another thing. High level, saves are very easy. Our party's spell casters max our DCs and enemies still save about half the time.