Are Spells Balanced by Level?

[mmadsen]

But how is that a balance issue? Since spells are the primary way a mage (and to a lesser degree, a cleric) contributes to combat, they have to keep in lock-step with the fighters of the world.

The balance I'm discussing is the balance between spells of a particular level, not between classes. I'm not saying that Fireball or Magic Missile makes Wizards better than Fighters; I'm saying that those spells could be bumped up a level (or down in power) and other spells could be knocked down a level (or up in power).

Why is it bad that certain spells are more popular than others?

It implies that those popular spells are a particularly good "bargain" for their "cost" (level of spell slot they take up), and that either (a) they're too powerful for that slot, or (b) the other spells at that level are too weak.

Further, the utility of some spells depends on the game and the challenges presented therein.

I don't deny that, but it doesn't explain everything either.

 

[I'm A Banana]

To re-iterate:

The reason Fireball and Magic Missle are popular isn't because they're overpowered. It's because they are effective damage-dealers in a battle. And most characters choose things that help them survive or help them kill over things that help them make ropes do a lil' jig.
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It'd be kinda analagous to saying: "What?! A Greatsword is only a Martial weapon? What the hell? All Fighters who want to deal damage in combat should be using a Greatsword! Quick, increase it's cost so that they're not reliant on it! Make them use weaker stuff instead! Greatswords should be Exotic!"
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The spells are popular because of the niche the arcane caster fills, not because there's something too good about them. Any time you have an option to go with something that hurts things or helps yourself over something that...say....makes pudding...as an adventurer, you want to kill and live, not make frickin' pudding.
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Again, to use a Fighter analogy: "Why doesn't everyone go with Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave? Or the Whirlwind Attack chain? Or the Shot feats (if they're ranged). Obviously, because every fighter chooses these feats, they must be too good, and thus they must be bumped up to compensate for their goodness."
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A Fighter who doesn't go with a chain like that isn't maximizing his butt-whoppin' powers. Likewise, a wizard who opts not to cast magic missile is loosing out on a portion of his class's *point*: to cast the spells that make the peoples fall down.
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just because something's popular doesn't mean it's overpowered. Just because fighters like using swords or rogues like hiding or clerics like healing doesn't make swords, the hide skill, or healing overpowered. It just means that it gives the player a power that is, in most campaigns, more useful than others. In most campaigns, zappin' a foe and makin' him keel over is more useful than, say, a divination. If you want the spells to be more rarely chosen, it's a campaign issue -- change the campaign to be intrigue-based, or maze-based, without that many things with hit points to blow up. Be sure to warn your players. You'll probably find more divinations and enchantments because they'll be more useful.
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It just so happens that most campaigns include a healthy dose of butt-kickin', and if an arcane caster can't do that, what's the point of having an arcane caster around at all?

So by knocking up the big-boom spells, you force arcane casters to be largely useless at the levels where they would normally get them. It'd be like saying that because most fighters choose a certain feat chain that the feat chain is overpowered...it's not overpowered. It's just generally the most useful in a given campaign.

 

[mmadsen]

So by knocking up the big-boom spells, you force arcane casters to be largely useless at the levels where they would normally get them.

You can move spells up or down, depending on your goals. Thus, you can make arcane casters more powerful or less powerful -- or roughly equally powerful, but with different strengths and weaknesses.

This is not about knocking Wizards down a peg.

It'd be like saying that because most fighters choose a certain feat chain that the feat chain is overpowered...it's not overpowered. It's just generally the most useful in a given campaign.

If no one ever took any Feat chain except Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, as a game designer you'd naturally look to either boost the power of other Feat chains, or to drop the power of that "too popular" chain.

 

[hong]

You can move spells up or down, depending on your goals. Thus, you can make arcane casters more powerful or less powerful -- or roughly equally powerful, but with different strengths and weaknesses.

Is this stupid argument back again?

Yes, you can move spells up and down levels without destroying the game. That doesn't mean it's a good idea. Fireball and magic missile are popular not just because they deal damage, but because they are SPECTACULAR ways of dealing damage. They do exactly what most players of wizards and sorcs want their characters to do: kick monster butt in an emphatic manner, with lots of FX and property damage thrown in. Not only that, but these spells are essentially the signature spells of D&D: they signify what arcane magic means, in a way no other spell quite manages.

That's why fireball is so popular. Regardless of what you may think, it isn't an uber-spell: lots of creatures have fire resistance, and against a single powerful monster as opposed to large groups, it's wasted. MM is very useful against incorporeal beasties, but for anything else, you can usually find better alternatives.

Bestow curse, whatever its merits may be, is nowhere near as spectacular, and hence for most players it's boring. You may disagree, but then I think we established long ago that you don't play 3E anyway.

This is not about knocking Wizards down a peg.

Effectively, by degrading the ability to dish out direct damage in spectacular fashion, you are removing a prime attraction of the class to many players, and hence knocking wizards down many pegs.

If no one ever took any Feat chain except Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, as a game designer you'd naturally look to either boost the power of other Feat chains, or to drop the power of that "too popular" chain.

Since many feat chains exist that are popular besides PA/C/GC, and certainly not every fighter takes PA/C/GC, this is irrelevant.

 

[ergeheilalt]

Wizards Are Made for Magic

By far, my favorite class is the wizard. They are magic wielding demolitionists. That is the quintessential wizard. This is not to say that pacifist wizards do not exist, or that all wizards have fireball in their every day spell repertoire; but this is what wizards have come to be, the high powered arsenal of firepower other classes lack.

Comparing Magic Missile to Acid Arrow is a little off balance in my opinion. Magic Missile is far the superior with the capability to hit all the time, but the catch is in the small amount of damage dealt to the baddie (topping out at 5d4+5). Acid Arrow deals more damage (2d4) and can last more rounds (1 for every 3 levels). The difference is not great and that is why they are only separated by one level. So when you look at it, an 18th level wizard casting the spells shows up with a spell that can deal 5d4+5 damage or 12d4 ... seems simple enough

As many others have said, If you are crest fallen at having no one taking Ventriloquism or Erase, then you may want to tailor your campaign to one where these spells become required or useful. The vast majority of games tend to be combat centered, so the use of fireball as opposed to illusory Script is apparent. You cannot kill some one by showing them your illusory script, but you can blow someone into a bunch of toasty little bits.

Yes, haste is overpowered. Everyone knows that, its been brought up many times. Yes, harm should warrant a saving throw. Okay. This does not mean Fireball warrants being kicked up to 4th level. Look at it this way. A Fighter at 5th level has 5 feats and a BAB of +5 plus what ever his strength score is. Compare this to the mage, with +2 BAB and 3 feats. Without fire ball, the mage will hang back, possibly throwing out a few Magic Missiles (probably only 2 if you knocked it up to 2nd Level). What else can he do? Throw his voice for 5 minutes? Honestly, fireball is what moves the mage up to the caliber of the fighter. Compare the wizard to the cleric, BAB of +3; turn/rebuke undead, many more buff spells, armor, spontaneous casting... the wizard definitely needs that fireball to stay on par. Same with the rogue, monk, barbarian, paladin, druid, etc ... the wizard's explosive arsenal allows them to deal the damage and have the same effectiveness as the rest of the party. Balance between the spell levels is irrelevant. If anything, dropping bestow curse to 1st or 2nd level is over powering IMHO.

*edited for mispellings