Are Spells Balanced by Level?

A couple points:

#1: A spell level isn't necessarily used to compare two equal-level spells as much as to compare two equal-utility spells.

That is to say: Flaming sphere is 2nd level and Fireball is 3rd because in combat Fireball dishes out more damage over a larger area, etc. And Message is 1st level and Whispering Wind is 2nd because when needing to communicate WW has a much larger range, etc. NOT Flaming sphere and Whipsering Wind are 2nd level because they're equally popular and equally effective. It's really misleading to try and compare two spells by some simple scalar quantity such as a "spell level". What metrics are you going by? Can you even find a metric that every spell possesses? That 'spell level' quantity is there to distinguish between spells of similar function, the effect of calling two spells of the same level tantamout is just that: the effect of giving spell levels. Not the reason for spell levels.

If you were to change spell levels by how powerful they were in comparasion to their (spell level) peers, you'd start to notice two things. 1) combat-related spells (or whatever spells benefit the most from the metric you use) will filter up so that you'll never see those spells at low levels. While the utility spells would all filter down and clog the first several spell levels. and 2) Spells of similar function would start to "double up" on spell levels or at least be so close to eachother that one will be dwarfed by the other quickly (this applies to both the high and low 'power' spells).

#2: Frequency of memorization/preperation is no sound basis for determining one spell's power over another.

First reason: It depends so heavily on the campaign. If it's all a hack and slash, kick-in-the-door style of campaign, then of course you'll see the damaging spells and whatnot far more often. If you have a campaign with much less fighting (heavy roleplaying, must overcome enemies without violence, etc), then those damage spells will be all but ignored for such treats as Charm Person, Detect Thoughts, Animate Rope, and Illusory Script.

Second reason: In addition to the first reason, not every spell was meant to be cast several times a day. For example Raise Dead is indescribably useful, but a cleric probably doesn't need three prepared each day and will usually memorize it once when he learns of the need for it. That doesn't mean it's less useful than Flamestrike, which is the same spell level and has a good chance of the cleric having ready one or more times a day. In fact, if faced with the choice of permanently giving up Flame Strike or Raise Dead, I'd imagine many would give up the former (let's pretend he doesn't have access to the higer level versions like ressurection just yet:) ). Frequency in memorizing tells nothing other than how often a spell's use may come into play each day, which is not the same as how important the spell is to its caster (though it can influence that).
 

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Would I use [Bestow Curse] as a level 1 caster? No. Magic Missile, Sleep, Burning Hands, and Shocking Grasp all have a decent chance of killing a low-level foe with (at most) a touch attack like Bestow Curse. If I have (4+Con bonus) hp and something's next to me, I want to kill it, not give it a -6 to an ability score!
Equally importantly, if your opponent has 2, 3, or 4 + Con bonus Hit Points, you want to do 1d4+1 points of Hit-Point damage, not six points of Ability Damage. Hit Points start very low and quickly scale to very high. Abilities barely scale at all.

Commoners have little reason to fear being cursed or turned into a toad; no Wizard would waste such a high-level spell on them. Magic Missile, on the other hand, is just 1st-level and almost 100% lethal.
 

Would I use [Magic Missile as a 2nd-level spell] as a level-3 Wizard? Yes. It is still pretty good, better than Melf's Acid Arrow in fact.
And that illustrates exactly the kind of balance issue I'm getting at. Multiple spells fill the same niche (e.g. combat), but some are much better (and thus more popular) for their level than others.
 

mmadsen said:

And that illustrates exactly the kind of balance issue I'm getting at. Multiple spells fill the same niche (e.g. combat), but some are much better (and thus more popular) for their level than others.

I think its the function that at certain levels the DD attack spells are lacking.(2nd and 4th) MM i beleive is slightly too good, but the 3rd level spells i see all of them alot. Slow rocks, hold person rocks,(rocks more for clerics), fireball rocks, lightning bolt is cool but needing a clear path makes it less useful I think, heck even sleet storm is good, stinking cloud is fairly solid as well.

4th level there just aren't any DD spells, so you will get lots of enervations, and or non dirct attack spells. i think solid fog is a great spell I don't see it much though, evards with its aciton one round later problem is barely used except as a trap, etc. So I'm not sure the spells are too good, but that at 2nd and 4th level levels poeple deal with quickly and often there aren't any great choices for attack spells.
 

mmadsen said:
And that illustrates exactly the kind of balance issue I'm getting at. Multiple spells fill the same niche (e.g. combat), but some are much better (and thus more popular) for their level than others.

But how is that a balance issue? Since spells are the primary way a mage (and to a lesser degree, a cleric) contributes to combat, they have to keep in lock-step with the fighters of the world. If certain spells didn't scale, then they'd be fairly useless and totally forgotten. Do you perceive an imbalance with the spell? In what way? A 3rd level sorceror gets to cast only a handful of MMs per day, more if he sacrifices some higher-level slots. The fighter can dish out more damage than that with a bow in a matter of seconds, with the help of a few handy feats.

Why is it bad that certain spells are more popular than others? I've already heard of several spells that are popular with some groups that are virtually ignored by others. Slow, for example; some groups use it to vast tacitcal advantage, while others don't. Why isn't it as popular as haste or Fly? Simple. Haste lets the spellcaster enhance his own personal contribution to the combat...slow merely deprives his enemy. Some folks just aren't going to find that an appealing choice, as sound a tactic as it is. That isn't a failure of the spell, just a matter of game involvement.

Further, the utility of some spells depends on the game and the challenges presented therein. A game heavier on combat than normal D&D is going to generate spellcaster heavy on combat-related spells. A game where role-playing and creative thinking are rewarded might make a spell like Faerie Fire or Prestidigitation much more useful than otherwise. Glitterdust is a very popular spell with my group, for example, but I don't often hear it's praises sung elsewhere. That isn't a poor reflection on the spell, merely a choice of specific players.

I would also argue that Melf's Acid Arrow is different from MM, not necessarily better. Especially if a Brooch of Shielding is about. :)
 

Re: Overused...overpowered...

ashockney said:

0:
Daze - Loses action! No save! Hello?
In the SRD, Daze has a saving throw. What's the problem here?

1st:
Shield: should be +3, all facing
Mage Armor: Duration and/or +1/3 levels (max +7)
True Strike: +20? 1st Level? Why not +5 or +10?
Sleep/Color Spray: until about 4th or 5th level. Up to then, it's an absolute show-stopper.
Expeditious Retreat: They didn't say double, did they? Oh, c'mon! Monks? Hello!?!? +5' move/level (max +30').
You have to learn how to flank (not the game maneuver, just get on both side of) your PC mages. Shield is great until you are surrounded.
Mage Armor would be completely usesless as you've nerfed it.
True Strike: Trading one perfect hit for Mage Armor seems fair to me.
Sleep/Color Spray: Far too easy to take out fellow party members. That downside alone makes them balanced.
Expeditious Retreat: How many Sor/Mnk characters are there really?

2nd:
Web: Huge AoE and significant impact, increase level
Invisibility: very little can contend with at this level (implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Bull's/Cat's/Endurance - I hate to say it, because I love them too, but they're just used too much. Either knock their durations down or knock the ability to stack them up...ie, you can only use one enhancement item, and one enhancement spell at a time.
Levitate: Too soon, increase level(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Web is a good way to catch your breath in combat. If delayed by a level, it would never ever be cast again.
Invisibility: Perfectly placed. Easy to deal with, see glitterdust
Pumps: Don't the enemy casters also do this for their side?
Levitate: I have seen levitate cast twice in 20 years of gaming. (One may have been as a potion.) Why hasn't the enemy taken flying invaders into account in their lair? The enemy doesn't know that the adventurers are low-level and cannot fly.
3rd:
Fireball: AoE is HUGE, especially for the level
but damage is fine
Lightning Bolt: see above, not quite as bad on AoE
Hold Person: What does this spell make ANY other de-buffer or "fear" spell look like? Why would I enfeeble, curse, feeblemind, hopeless, shaken, or anything of the sort when I you completely remove you as a threat? Increase level.
Blink: Remove the ghost touch twink.
Fly: this is very difficult to contend with tactically at 5th level, increase it's level(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Haste: Actions AND +4 to AC that stacks with everything? Twink it or increase the level.
Slow: AOE, otherwise great
Fireball vs. Lightning. Lightning a better spell. Fireball is over hyped.
Hold Person: Only affects humanoids
Blink: The 3rd edition version of this spell is the most balanced version of it. Why didn't you complain about Blur at 2nd level?
Fly: This is 3rd level because at 5th level is when the party starts dealing with flying enemies. Without this spell, there's going to be a lot of combats that take place between just the archers and the flying monster.
Haste: I think this spell should be higher level. There is just too much that can be done with an extra partial action. Unfortunately this just delays the grief haste causes.
Slow: This spell was much worse in 2nd ed. Now it only targets one creature so it is fine.

4th:
Evard's: What a mess...remove it, or change completely.
Phantasmal Killer: Insta-kill, needs cap
Fear: AoE, wow. Increase level, or decrease AoE.
Poly Other: only if you "twink" the interpretion to include keeping items while morphed
Black Tentacles: What mess? Great spell.
Phantasmal Killer: You get 2 saving throws.
Fear: It's mind-affecting. So many things have bonuses against mind-affecting spells it's almost funny.
Poly Other: This spell was screwed up. It should work like the 2nd ed version. Where you also think like the new form.

5th:
Hold Monster: see Hold Person, increase level.
Teleport: this is a little early, and makes it difficult to plan for(implications to magic items, however, if changed)
Trans Rock/Mud in conjunction with Trans Mud/Rock
Hold Monster: I don't see the problem. It's an Enchantment. They suck. I should know.
Teleport: A very necessary spell at this point. Let the party teleport home every day. There's no harm. The trick is fix scrying. The DC is too low for people never seen before.
Trans Rock/Mud: This is an instant kill that can easily go wrong on you.

6th:
Disintegrate: insta-kill, needs cap
Mass Haste: extra actions and +4 to AC (not as bad for the level, though, could easily be 7th)
Tenser's Transform: s/b BAB equals +1/HD, not adds BAB (especially in instances of fighters/monsters)
Disintegrate: Enemies make their saves more often at this level. It's not so bad.
Mass Haste: Agreed
Tenser's Transform: Never seen it used. Since it doesn't also give you 100 hp it is not nearly as good as it seems.

7th:
Finger of Death: Insta-kill, needs cap.
Teleport w/o Error: still too early, I like Etherealness here...note that targeted T-ports to only a specific location could be lower level, (implications to magic items, however, if changed)...
Again saves are easier to come by and the serious enemies have SR.
Teleport: Again so they can teleport.

8th:
Otto's Irresistable Dance: no save on something other than damage...very bad, twink it.
Horrid Wilting: Damage type, make it resistable.
Otto: It's an 8th level spell. It's the only friggin' good Enchantment and you want to squash it. Sheesh.
Horrid: With all of the direct death spells what is wrong with a 15d8, Fortitude half spell?

9th:
Wail of the Banshee: AoE insta-kill, needs cap.
Bard's negate it. It is capped to one creature per caster level.

There are some implications of a "lower magic world" in my list, but I think it meets the requirements of "If you moved these spells, would they still be taken at their new levels (or fix the spell and keep it at the same level)...I think the answer would be yes in all cases. [/B][/QUOTE]
 

Re: Re: Overused...overpowered...

jmucchiello said:
Slow: This spell was much worse in 2nd ed. Now it only targets one creature so it is fine.

No it doesn't. From the SRD:

Slow

Transmutation
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One creature/level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes


Most of your other points were spot on though.
 
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Re: Re: Re: Overused...overpowered...

Storm Raven said:
(Slow from the SRD)
Most of your other points were spot on though.
Perhaps I had a versionitis attack and Slow was pumped compared to 2nd ed. Er. Well, then it has to stay the same level as haste then. Losing a partial action is just as devastating whether it happens to 5th level parties or 7th level parties. So changing it's level just delays the problem.

Thanks for the catch,
Joe
 

The nifty thing about Slow in 2e was that it inflicted a -4 penalty to saves, so it had an excellent chance of landing.

When my bard was 1st and 2nd level, I used Daze quite a bit. Even with spell focus, and an 18 CHA, it wasn't overpowering. Another problem is that even really powerful fighters don't have reliable attacks. Getting dazed or stunned at higher levels means that enemies can tear into the defenseless guy and throw out tons of damage. At 1st level, combat is pretty hit and miss. There's not a great deal of expected damage to lose in any one action.
 

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