-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Are warriors & rogues required at high level?
- Thread starter Grishnak
- Start date
Darklone
Registered User
I do see this more as a problem of how the DM runs the campaign. But then...
I have a group of 8 players. We had only one real fighter (dwarf) for a long time and the player always complained that he would only be the meatshield. Somehow he always forgot the encounters where he and the cleric behind him where the last men standing. He dished out nice amounts of damage and had the highest AC in the group.
Now the char died and he picked up a singleclass halfling cleric cause someone told him that would be pretty strong. Now he complains that his damage dish out is puny (It is, compared to the dwarf). Yet, the two times his dwarf got held or charmed, he complained about the class being too weak.
Talk to your DM. Be nice and explain your position and listen to him.
I have a group of 8 players. We had only one real fighter (dwarf) for a long time and the player always complained that he would only be the meatshield. Somehow he always forgot the encounters where he and the cleric behind him where the last men standing. He dished out nice amounts of damage and had the highest AC in the group.
Now the char died and he picked up a singleclass halfling cleric cause someone told him that would be pretty strong. Now he complains that his damage dish out is puny (It is, compared to the dwarf). Yet, the two times his dwarf got held or charmed, he complained about the class being too weak.
Talk to your DM. Be nice and explain your position and listen to him.
Bauglir
First Post
Piratecat said:
I've also seen this described as "neutralizing mere minions, leaving all the action and heroism to the fighter" and it's a sentiment I can appreciate.
Taking out those minions is important sure, but the spotlight of the fight is firmly on the BBEG. Bards will be singing songs of the knight who slew the dragon and not of the wizard who helped out by sweeping up the dragon's minions and maybe giving the knight a buff or two.
I believe that on some level everyone likes to be the hero at least some of the time, and the wizard's role in these scenarios is very definitely 'sidekick'. This wouldn't be a problem, but at high levels, generally speaking this scenario is all too common, thanks to the abundance of qualities such as SR, and being the in the shadow of the fighter most of the time is bound to grate after a while...
Of course the reverse, as in Grishnakh's case is also true. This is why I believe it's important to achieve a balance. For every super-spell-resistant BBEG there should be one that will be better dealt with by a spellcaster. Remember, fighters can take out minions too using tools like cleave & whirlwind attack..
jmucchiello
Hero
Wait a minute. You're 16th level, the primary fighter, and your attack bonus is only 19? Ranger7/shadowdancer9 makes your BAB +13/8/3, only 3 below the straight Ftr16 BAB. You have 22 Str for +6. Thus BAB +Str would be 19/14/9. You are using TWF and are still 19/14/9 thus your main weapon is only +2. Does it have cool other abilities?Grishnak said:
Also, with your shadow abilities, have you considered suddenly appearing behind your opponents and attacking them that way?
Nightingale 7
First Post
I also agree that this character falls short of being a front line fighter.Your attack bonus is pretty low for the party's foremost fighter,but even with a 20 Con you should be more concerned about being beaten to a creamy paste by most CR 16 melee monsters you confront.
The type of character you built is more suitable as helping the primary fighters of a group.Your mobility is great as a shadow dancer and you should be zipping through the battlefields,harassing enemy spellcasters,creating flanking opportunities and such,not going toe to toe exchanging blows,as you are most likely to give up first.
As to your other problems,if your DM gives you opportunity to recuperate after one or two battles the spellcasters are bound to rule the show.I've played in a campaign where the DM essentially gave us the "BG rest button" as I like to name it.
He didn't care if we wewre inside the deadliest dungeon available,there was a room we could rest in for as long as needed.Also the battles where pretty much Final Fantasy-esque,which means no tactics by the opponents,just straight forward beatdown,and difficult opponents simply meant more HPs.Me(cleric) and the wizard where ending encounters before the barbarian and the monk even reached the adversaries.So I guess that most of these points exist for your dm too,and unless he changes them you are bound to remain to the sidelines.
The type of character you built is more suitable as helping the primary fighters of a group.Your mobility is great as a shadow dancer and you should be zipping through the battlefields,harassing enemy spellcasters,creating flanking opportunities and such,not going toe to toe exchanging blows,as you are most likely to give up first.
As to your other problems,if your DM gives you opportunity to recuperate after one or two battles the spellcasters are bound to rule the show.I've played in a campaign where the DM essentially gave us the "BG rest button" as I like to name it.
He didn't care if we wewre inside the deadliest dungeon available,there was a room we could rest in for as long as needed.Also the battles where pretty much Final Fantasy-esque,which means no tactics by the opponents,just straight forward beatdown,and difficult opponents simply meant more HPs.Me(cleric) and the wizard where ending encounters before the barbarian and the monk even reached the adversaries.So I guess that most of these points exist for your dm too,and unless he changes them you are bound to remain to the sidelines.
Hackenslash
First Post
and the band played on.....
I am one of the opther players in the Campaign and also happen to be the new DM, Grishnak is talking about. Whist I will agree in part with Grishnak that his current character does not seem to be participating all that well in the High Level campaign, I think It may be because of Design flaws. His previous character was an awesome killing machine and dealt out tons of damage and that was sometimes even without his weapon, due to his Bull Rushing Charge Attack, he was a Minotaur. Unfortunately the side effect was that he often ended up attacking party members due to his frenzied rage, so eventually he fell to party area spell effects and was killed in Combat after a good display of resilience and combat potential I may add. Grishnak was given cart blanche to design any character he wished with any magic item he wished up to his total GP value for his level. He was the one who decided to play the Ranger/Shadow Dancer knowing that his Mellee Combat effectiveness would be affected and also choosing a Longsword - Lifestealer instead of a higher enhanced weapon, in fact when the DM gave him a +3 Longsword of Speed and Flaming, he turned his nose at it in a Huff, saying that he would prefer to use his Life stealer as it gives him +1d6 hit points on a Critical hit. Well at the end of the day, with out getting further involved in this Non-Spell Catser vs Spell Caster arguement, I would say this: If the player wants to create a strong melee type then don't multi class with none BAB yielding classes, just as Spell Casters suffer from multi classing with clases that don't yield spell casting levels. Also our party is small, only 4 players and a DM, so the choices of characters are limited, simply for game balance, a party of wizards just would not last. I think it was unfair of some of the posters to put the whole blame on the DM for Grishnaks lack of participation. There have been times where the player was a little limited on what he could do but that was not all the time and sometimes things don't always go the way you want them too. As the new DM it will be my priority to balance the adventures and also allow each party member to shine in the spot light for a while per session. But even so, people can make misjudgements and/or perceive things the way they want to irrespective of the actual facts.
To Grishnak: Don't give up a hobby that you have spent loads of money and time on, just because you THINK, your last couple of characters were not what you thought they would be. Maybe take some more time with your character generation and think of all angles, and try and create a character that will compliment, and/or fit in with, the party and not just a character you fancy playing. Know your character inside and out so you can maximise your potential in any situation. You must admit a few adventures ago you complained that you could not fly during an encounter with Dragons on the wing, only to find out that your Celestial Armor DID allow you to fly. Also try and see the adventure from other peoples perspectives (particularly the DM - what is he really tring to get the party to do/say/achieve etc...) and maybe you can find yourself a new niche in the gaming session if that particular session seems to be focused on the spell casters. But I have to say that since I have come back from the USA, you seem to have a problem with your place in the group and have been quite negative towards other members of the group if they suggest something about your character or about other ways to accomplish scenarios, or even about their own characters abilites. You tend to smack people down a lot, mostly jokingly, but never the less not always what people want to hear. You have often desguised it as roleplaying, but it seems to be prevelant in most of the characters you play, no matter what your allignment is,though it's mostly Neutral. Maybe you need to step back and focus on the game itself rather than the game mechanics and give more voice to your character(IN CHARACTER) and get more involved in the story line, whatever that may be. That might mean changing your outlook on an adventure and your role in it. Also look at the reason for the adventure in the first place, most of the time the DM will hint at to why the party is doing such a thing and may even hint at what will be needed in the next encounter, take advantage of these hints and prepare your character accordingly. This is not always the case and most of the time it has been roleplayed out but it makes the session go better if you deliberately get your character involved as much as possible instead of sitting back and not being bothered as to what the party has to say or do in a situation. Try and be a little more approachable about new ideas and suggestions for abilities and other uses and don't get to rigid in your thinking and pre-conceived ideas of what a charadcter should or should not do in a given situation or encounter. Although I think experimenting with characters is fun and a good way to learn new rules, it needs to be kept in check for game balance and sometimes characters just don't fit into a campaign or style of play. Just because a DM or a Player can see potential problems with a new character, does not mean to say they are deliberately critisizing your choice of character or your ability to play it, they just feel that the character will find it difficult to work within the group and still maintain party integrity and/or balance and may also mean future confontation within the party itelf. And to my way of thinking that should be avoided at all costs. Anyway please don't take anything I have said in this post negatively, you have played DnD for a long time, as have we all, and all I am tring to do is advise you the best way I know. Maybe a few games under a different DM (err....me !) will make you feel better about the game and will help you understand that we are all here to have fun and not to get a one upmanship over one another as to who gets to play the spell caster. I for one will do my best to make the adventures challenging and rewarding and will make sure that EACH type of character will have a chance to shine. Cheers and hope to see you on Thursday Night...ZAL.
jmucchiello said:
I am one of the opther players in the Campaign and also happen to be the new DM, Grishnak is talking about. Whist I will agree in part with Grishnak that his current character does not seem to be participating all that well in the High Level campaign, I think It may be because of Design flaws. His previous character was an awesome killing machine and dealt out tons of damage and that was sometimes even without his weapon, due to his Bull Rushing Charge Attack, he was a Minotaur. Unfortunately the side effect was that he often ended up attacking party members due to his frenzied rage, so eventually he fell to party area spell effects and was killed in Combat after a good display of resilience and combat potential I may add. Grishnak was given cart blanche to design any character he wished with any magic item he wished up to his total GP value for his level. He was the one who decided to play the Ranger/Shadow Dancer knowing that his Mellee Combat effectiveness would be affected and also choosing a Longsword - Lifestealer instead of a higher enhanced weapon, in fact when the DM gave him a +3 Longsword of Speed and Flaming, he turned his nose at it in a Huff, saying that he would prefer to use his Life stealer as it gives him +1d6 hit points on a Critical hit. Well at the end of the day, with out getting further involved in this Non-Spell Catser vs Spell Caster arguement, I would say this: If the player wants to create a strong melee type then don't multi class with none BAB yielding classes, just as Spell Casters suffer from multi classing with clases that don't yield spell casting levels. Also our party is small, only 4 players and a DM, so the choices of characters are limited, simply for game balance, a party of wizards just would not last. I think it was unfair of some of the posters to put the whole blame on the DM for Grishnaks lack of participation. There have been times where the player was a little limited on what he could do but that was not all the time and sometimes things don't always go the way you want them too. As the new DM it will be my priority to balance the adventures and also allow each party member to shine in the spot light for a while per session. But even so, people can make misjudgements and/or perceive things the way they want to irrespective of the actual facts.
To Grishnak: Don't give up a hobby that you have spent loads of money and time on, just because you THINK, your last couple of characters were not what you thought they would be. Maybe take some more time with your character generation and think of all angles, and try and create a character that will compliment, and/or fit in with, the party and not just a character you fancy playing. Know your character inside and out so you can maximise your potential in any situation. You must admit a few adventures ago you complained that you could not fly during an encounter with Dragons on the wing, only to find out that your Celestial Armor DID allow you to fly. Also try and see the adventure from other peoples perspectives (particularly the DM - what is he really tring to get the party to do/say/achieve etc...) and maybe you can find yourself a new niche in the gaming session if that particular session seems to be focused on the spell casters. But I have to say that since I have come back from the USA, you seem to have a problem with your place in the group and have been quite negative towards other members of the group if they suggest something about your character or about other ways to accomplish scenarios, or even about their own characters abilites. You tend to smack people down a lot, mostly jokingly, but never the less not always what people want to hear. You have often desguised it as roleplaying, but it seems to be prevelant in most of the characters you play, no matter what your allignment is,though it's mostly Neutral. Maybe you need to step back and focus on the game itself rather than the game mechanics and give more voice to your character(IN CHARACTER) and get more involved in the story line, whatever that may be. That might mean changing your outlook on an adventure and your role in it. Also look at the reason for the adventure in the first place, most of the time the DM will hint at to why the party is doing such a thing and may even hint at what will be needed in the next encounter, take advantage of these hints and prepare your character accordingly. This is not always the case and most of the time it has been roleplayed out but it makes the session go better if you deliberately get your character involved as much as possible instead of sitting back and not being bothered as to what the party has to say or do in a situation. Try and be a little more approachable about new ideas and suggestions for abilities and other uses and don't get to rigid in your thinking and pre-conceived ideas of what a charadcter should or should not do in a given situation or encounter. Although I think experimenting with characters is fun and a good way to learn new rules, it needs to be kept in check for game balance and sometimes characters just don't fit into a campaign or style of play. Just because a DM or a Player can see potential problems with a new character, does not mean to say they are deliberately critisizing your choice of character or your ability to play it, they just feel that the character will find it difficult to work within the group and still maintain party integrity and/or balance and may also mean future confontation within the party itelf. And to my way of thinking that should be avoided at all costs. Anyway please don't take anything I have said in this post negatively, you have played DnD for a long time, as have we all, and all I am tring to do is advise you the best way I know. Maybe a few games under a different DM (err....me !) will make you feel better about the game and will help you understand that we are all here to have fun and not to get a one upmanship over one another as to who gets to play the spell caster. I for one will do my best to make the adventures challenging and rewarding and will make sure that EACH type of character will have a chance to shine. Cheers and hope to see you on Thursday Night...ZAL.
Hackenslash said:
Well this made my jaw hit the floor
+2 life stealer or
+3 flaming and speed
So an extra +1 to hit and damage, plus a whole extra attack at full bonuses, and d6 fire damage. It seems to me that the second weapon would have fixed just about all of his complaints immediately. (especially if he could find a way to get a shortsword for his other hand with similar abilities).
Wherever you put this weapon go get it back!!!
Hackenslash
First Post
Edit.....
Actually he did take the weapon in the end but says that he will sell it as he prefers to use his Life Stealer instead. He did actually have to use it in the last session as he did not want to risk giving health back to undead creatures with the life stealer. I think it's a bit of a character issue preference rather than a game mechanic manipulation, which may be commendable if for the right reasons as long as it's not stubborness. In any case I do agree with your reply, the weapon is far more powerfull than a life stealer, which we all said as players, which only comes into play on a critical. Still, if that is what he wants to use then so be it, but like you said in your post, it would solve some of his mellee combat BAB problems. Oh well..the Cookie Has Crumbled...ZAL.
Scion said:Well this made my jaw hit the floor
+2 life stealer or
+3 flaming and speed
So an extra +1 to hit and damage, plus a whole extra attack at full bonuses, and d6 fire damage. It seems to me that the second weapon would have fixed just about all of his complaints immediately. (especially if he could find a way to get a shortsword for his other hand with similar abilities).
Wherever you put this weapon go get it back!!!
Actually he did take the weapon in the end but says that he will sell it as he prefers to use his Life Stealer instead. He did actually have to use it in the last session as he did not want to risk giving health back to undead creatures with the life stealer. I think it's a bit of a character issue preference rather than a game mechanic manipulation, which may be commendable if for the right reasons as long as it's not stubborness. In any case I do agree with your reply, the weapon is far more powerfull than a life stealer, which we all said as players, which only comes into play on a critical. Still, if that is what he wants to use then so be it, but like you said in your post, it would solve some of his mellee combat BAB problems. Oh well..the Cookie Has Crumbled...ZAL.
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi all!
It seems to me (not sure if someone already mentioned this?) that Grishnak is playing the wrong role with the right class or the right role with the wrong class combo.
Ranger/Shadowdancer to me doesn't say frontline fighter type.
If you are filling the niche of the heavy hitter you want to get yourself a character that can do the job properly.
Attack Bonus +19 is pitiful for a 16th-level frontline fighter type.
Also it could be the DM is (subconsciously) stacking the campaign with high AC low SR opponents; which would favour the spellcasters.
I think someone else mentioned above that Fighters favour better against single powerful opponents whereas Spellcasters favour better against high numbers of relatively weaker opponents. So that could be something the DM could also address.
It seems to me (not sure if someone already mentioned this?) that Grishnak is playing the wrong role with the right class or the right role with the wrong class combo.
Ranger/Shadowdancer to me doesn't say frontline fighter type.
If you are filling the niche of the heavy hitter you want to get yourself a character that can do the job properly.
Attack Bonus +19 is pitiful for a 16th-level frontline fighter type.
Also it could be the DM is (subconsciously) stacking the campaign with high AC low SR opponents; which would favour the spellcasters.
I think someone else mentioned above that Fighters favour better against single powerful opponents whereas Spellcasters favour better against high numbers of relatively weaker opponents. So that could be something the DM could also address.
sithramir
First Post
I wished I could help your situation. I can, however, make some suggestions.
First off i'm usually the wizard and at higher levels I was the "leader" due to my versatility and having diplomatic skills. I ended up being the guy everyone looked for for everything. We had no rogue and I could hide and sneak so they'd say "you go do it" or in the battle against a lich they'd be like "pull out that prismatic eye spell" do this do this "buff us with spells", etc. They'd look at me to teleport them or to do a lot of things I didn't really think i need to do. What I then found was that in combat I was the target because the BBEG's realized that they depended on me. I then ended up learning good ways to protect myself avoid the bad guys to actually let my friends save my butt.
I know its from the opposite spectrum of your problem but it can be annoying both ways. What I suggest is acquiring items to give yourself more things to do. Invest in litle things like dirty fighting feat plus add flaming/cold to your weapons. With TWF thats the best ways to add a lot of damage potential.
Look for useful things to make your guy helpful. Chime of opening, lantern of revealing. Those type things give your guy some more usefulness. Flying items and speed boosting items would help you get to the fight sooner and allow you to use "hide in plain sight" more also.
Unfortunately, the DM does have to tailor the encounters. I'd suggest telling him that if the people you fight are smart they'd try to kill off the people who are the worst threat. And I doubt they'd see you as the worst threat. Remind your DM that silence spells or warp wood on a wooden holy symbol really screws up the casters days.
First off i'm usually the wizard and at higher levels I was the "leader" due to my versatility and having diplomatic skills. I ended up being the guy everyone looked for for everything. We had no rogue and I could hide and sneak so they'd say "you go do it" or in the battle against a lich they'd be like "pull out that prismatic eye spell" do this do this "buff us with spells", etc. They'd look at me to teleport them or to do a lot of things I didn't really think i need to do. What I then found was that in combat I was the target because the BBEG's realized that they depended on me. I then ended up learning good ways to protect myself avoid the bad guys to actually let my friends save my butt.
I know its from the opposite spectrum of your problem but it can be annoying both ways. What I suggest is acquiring items to give yourself more things to do. Invest in litle things like dirty fighting feat plus add flaming/cold to your weapons. With TWF thats the best ways to add a lot of damage potential.
Look for useful things to make your guy helpful. Chime of opening, lantern of revealing. Those type things give your guy some more usefulness. Flying items and speed boosting items would help you get to the fight sooner and allow you to use "hide in plain sight" more also.
Unfortunately, the DM does have to tailor the encounters. I'd suggest telling him that if the people you fight are smart they'd try to kill off the people who are the worst threat. And I doubt they'd see you as the worst threat. Remind your DM that silence spells or warp wood on a wooden holy symbol really screws up the casters days.
Similar Threads
