Are warriors & rogues required at high level?

[Grishnak]

Replies to some questions and others comments

Gariig here's the full character.

str 22 dex 24 con 20 int 13 wis 14 cha 10.
Ac 26 armour 8 dex 7 dodge 1
saves fort 16 reflex 20 will 12

Init 7
melee 19/14/9, 19/9 or 19/14/9/19, 19/9
damage d8+8 x 3 on crit 1 negative lev gain 1d6 temp hp's or d8+9+1d6 x4, d6+8 x 2

Feats & class abilities
Improved Crit Long & shortsword, Iron Will, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Track, Wild Empathy, Combat style 2 weop fighting, mobility, endurance, animal companion, improved 2 weopon fighting, woodland stride, hide in plain sight, evasion, darkvision, uncanny dodge, shadow illusion, summon shadow, shadow jump 80ft, defensive roll, improved uncanny dodge & slippery mind. Favoured enemies - +4 outsider (evil) Demons & +2 Dragon - Dragon.

Magic items
Celestial Armour
Sword of life stealing
Luck Blade
Gloves of Dex +6
Belt of Giant Strength +6
Amulet of Health +4
Ioun Stone of Wisdom +2
Ring of Sustenance
Cloak of Resistance +2
Goggles of minute seeing
Ring of Invis
Longsword +3 Flaming & Speed
Potions of darkness, cure light x3, hide from undead x2
scroll of comp langs


Rgarding the swords, the flame sword has only come into play once due to creatures we've faced so I was still with the life drinker no matter what!! A pyrohydra and 4 beholders, oh shock horror all 5 killed by the casters along with the 2 dragons previous to that and the 4 hill giants, 6 ogres and 4 or 6 casters.

The shadowjump ability, jumped behind a mage in the 1st combat spell killed him outright, combat over 2 rounds, didn't swing weopon once.
Shadowjump 2 onto dragons back once I remembered the fly ability of my armour after 3 rounds of combat got to within 30 ft and jumped waited for next turn caster killed with polar ray 12 hp's of damage dealt in combat earlier on when the dragon came through the portal initially but I will take blame for forgetting the fly ability.
Next encounter 4 beholders 1st round caster kills 2 outright with meteor swarm, beholder drops rough on other group members my turn, moved behind the creature and had 1 attack 13 hp damage, next round caster drops another beholder, I have full round attacks dealing about 40 hp's caster finishes it off. Next encounter pyrohydra hit it twice group gets pounded by it with breath weopon cleric heals himself others move away. All attacks face me(10 or 11 heads) 123 hp's lost 1 round fair enough, creature dropped by cleric. A slight theme coming up here?? The spellcasters have rarely failed a spell resistance roll throughout the campaign whereas the warriors & bowmen are finding it extremely hard to hit half the time requiring really high to hit rolls.

To Hackenslash if you'd care to point out what exactly any of the warriors have done to date that comes to that. I can think of only 1 in god knows how many weeks and that was the called shot that stunned the worm like creature pretty much killing it outright anyway.
And you know personally as does Andy what my feelings have been after each session. I have spent a lot of money on my hobey and still do spend more in travel etc but it's not a hobby at the moment it's a chore of boredom!

 

[Kichwas]

I encourage other players to play rogues and melee combatant types...

It means my character can stay alive longer by letting someone else get in the way while I pick them off from a distance.

 

[gariig]

The problem I see with your character is...you are a 5th wheel. You don't fit nicely into any of the categories. The other possible reason is you aren't mix/maxed, either to a single profession like tank/damage dealer or sneak attack machine. The ranger and shadow dancer and meant to be skirmishers, hiding somewhere and running in for a quick blow and taking their enemies out quickly. Unfortunately, you lost BAB by going shadow dancer which hurts your "ranger" side. While shadowdancer really shines when you are rolling 4d6 sneak attack damage all the time, which you aren't.

If you are the front line fighter..I'm sorry. I don't really see many ways of boosting your tohit or AC. The only way I see is some natural armor and deflection bonuses. As far as hitting goes, well extra pluses to weapons is the only way I know how(based upon your current equipment).

The simplest solution is to realize you are a 5th wheel and deal with it. Help the group set up ambushing situations. If you have a sneak attacking melee rogue help him setup flanking. Guard the rear and spell casters. Quite honestly, your tohit of 19 and AC of 26 just sucks for a frontline at your level and that is how you are playing the character. You need to shift what you are doing from damage dealer/soaker to sneaky helper guy.

Gariig

 

[S'mon]

I found that in 3.0, Hasted & Buffed spellcasters tended to totally dominate play. This doesn't seem to be the case in 3.5 - although I allow Sorcerers to quicken spells, Using a 5th level slot to Magic Missile hasn't caused problems.

 

[Teflon Billy]

I found that in 3.0, Hasted & Buffed spellcasters tended to totally dominate play.[/b]

This was my experience as well. Spellcasters could do anyting a non-spellcaser could do. THei Ac could be better than the best armored fighter, they could sneak as ell as a rogue...(at high levels) if a spellcater was present, you had no need at all for non-spellcasters.

This doesn't seem to be the case in 3.5 - although I allow Sorcerers to quicken spells, Using a 5th level slot to Magic Missile hasn't caused problems.

This also is my experience. The rewriting of Haste and the cut duration of buff spells has answered most of my problems in this area.

 

[Plane Sailing]

The group I see is geared to the spellcasters, opportunities to rest etc etc and the fact that the last 5 combats have all been completed near enough totally by the casters with the warriors contributing about 40-60hps of damage.
.

Herein lies the problem. Fighters are big on endurance, casters are big on single actions. If you were in a dungeon and you had 10 encounters on the trot before sleepy time then the casters would be relying on you to save their bacon.

Plus - shadowdancer shadows are hardly meant to be first-line fighters! What they are is excellent spies... being incorporeal they are excellent for peeking through walls, opening doors from the other side and other scouting, spying things. The casters may be able to scout once or twice a day through their spells, you can presumably scout all day long if you want to.

The big problem may be your DM though... if he is setting things up to give casters an optimal experience it severely limits one of their main balancing factors vis a vis other classes - limited spell resource.

Cheers

 

[wolfen]

I think this touches upon the typical "What is the DM's job?" question. Some DM's try to play to the character strengths when they set up encounters, others simply create encounters that are interesting or plot-oriented and expect the players to step up to the plate and find ways to be useful.

That said, the DM in Grishnak's group has a particularly challenging group to satisfy everyone. In my opinion, the DM punishes a player when he says "Pick any character you want" but makes no effort to adjust to the character's strengths and weaknesses.

Every scenario depicted was Heavy Hitting Combat stuff. It only takes a few Dimension Dooring monks to give the spellcasters hell -- But wait, a sneaky fightertype is needed to find and rescue the princess before the tunnels cave in!

That said, if Grishnak's style of play is inflexible -- it sounds terminally Hack-and-Slash -- then he may not even be aware of heroic opportunities presented to him.


wolfen

 

[Endur]

If you need to feel useful to the group, play a cleric. There is always room for more than one cleric in a party, and clerics are always useful, no matter what the adventure is.

Now I'm the sort of player that needs to feel useful to the group but at this moment in time playing the last 2 warriors gaining levels whilst doing pretty much nothing is not my idea of useful or fun!!

 

[Henry]

That said, if Grishnak's style of play is inflexible -- it sounds terminally Hack-and-Slash -- then he may not even be aware of heroic opportunities presented to him.

wolfen

I apologize, but I love the above statement. (Check the DM of this game's comments above.)

Grishnak, there are two issues here, and I don't think the usefulness of your character is one of them.

The first issue is this - are you possibly burned out with playing D&D, regardless of your character? If you are tired of RP'ing, it may be time to take a break.

Second, assuming the first is not true, have you worked on finding ways in which your character's abilities are good to have? It sometimes helps to list all your PC's abilities in front of you, as a list (not on a character sheet, but a plain list, and think up at least two ways in which these abilities could be useful.

Your shadow, for instance, is an excellent spy, as someone noted. He is also excellent for killing mage's familiars, and has a slew of undead immunities, making him ideal for going place that others would have to expend a lot of effort to get into.

Good luck on your decision, and I hope you find the best course of action for you.

 

[Hackenslash]

Sorry you feel the way you do.....

Replies to some questions and others comments

To Hackenslash if you'd care to point out what exactly any of the warriors have done to date that comes to that. I can think of only 1 in god knows how many weeks and that was the called shot that stunned the worm like creature pretty much killing it outright anyway.
And you know personally as does Andy what my feelings have been after each session. I have spent a lot of money on my hobey and still do spend more in travel etc but it's not a hobby at the moment it's a chore of boredom!

Well what more can I say that I have not already said in my huge post on this thread. You have delt out a tremendous amount of damage when you played your Minotaur Character but lets not argue anymore. Please re-read my last post, as I think you may have missed what I was tring to help you with. In any case, I have tried to sympathise, constructively critisize, advise and guide the best I can. But it is obvious from the tone of your posts and from the way you have been in the last few sessions that you still have an issue with the hobby and the style of play of the group you are in. All I can say now is that if you really want to stick with the hobby you have to appreciate that like anything else, it has it's ups and downs and if you work through it and give people a chance to help and advise then sometimes things can work out for the best. But if you have already made up your mind then to be honest I would have to say go with your heart and take a break and see if you really miss the hobby. If you do, then you can always come back, if you don't then you havn't lost anything really only time and some money, that may be recuperated from selling etc...Also, the 3rd option is to run your own group and play DnD the way you want to play it, under your own rules and guidelines. Maybe you don't need a break from the Hobby, just a break from being a player. Some people are like this, they actually prefer the controlling aspect of DM'ing rather than playing. Maybe it's something you should look into. Oh well I'll not bore you anymore with my thoughts on this subject. If you are still interested in playing, then be there on Thursday night, if not, then I will understand. Shame, but such is life. Bye for now from ZAL>