D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Yaarel]

Assuming we are talking about high level aka mythic fighters from legend and fiction, what are the core traits you associate with those figures that you want to emulate that simultaneously puts them on par with wizards ? Obviously strength of arms -- fighters should be the ones that fight the best. It's in the name. This should include, I take it, some limited use big guns (aka tear a giant's arm off). Next, they are almost always depicted as having superhuman strength and stamina -- not always superman levels, but certainly MCU Captain America levels. Maybe a feature where they get expertise in Athletics? Or they increase things life lifting capacity, jump distance, and movement speed? Finally you mentioned leader of men qualities. Do you mean having "summons" available in the form of soldiers, or warden like inspiration abilities or?

Each of these features has specific mechanical considerations.

It is probably safe to say that most (all?) mythic warriors have magic items. Thor has his hammer, belt, chariot etcetera. Perseus has his sword, invisibility helmet, sandals of flying, and shield.

 

[FrozenNorth]

These are high level divination spells − that burn up slots − or require the Wizard to already be "familiar" with the location in the first place.

Or just have a rat familiar.

 

[Cadence]

While the shouting the hand back on was hyperbole, it doesn't change that a lot of people view instant healing from another PC as magical. Some are okay with encouragement restoring hit points that being bitten by a monster remove, others are not. I don't know 4e, so I really don't have a strong opinion, but I do vaguely recall the arguments. Can the warlord healing abilities be used on an unconscious ally?

<Insert more on HP to detail thread>

 

[Maxperson]

How am I doing that? This isn’t Schroedinger’s wizard, it is a wizard using a single spell!

And funny enough, always the exact spell they need in the exact situation to best use it.

If anything, I can understand why wizards seem weak in your games, because they seem to be incapable of using any forethought whatsoever. They would think into a marilith on the first round of combat and waste seven rounds arming themselves is good strategy.

So now my shooting down the bad ideas put forth here by people who are not my players constitutes my players being bad at playing spellcasters? Man, your arguments just get better and better!

Meanwhile, the poor fighter is puzzling over how to warn the king about the vizier’s plot.

He could just tell the king. If you can white room things, so can I. The king is just down the hall and the fighter walks there.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Meanwhile, the poor fighter is puzzling over how to warn the king about the vizier’s plot.

An Eldritch Knight could know the Sending spell, since it's evocation. Probably not a great pick for his limited spells, but he has something (that he had to steal from the Wizard anyway).

 

[Giant Octopodes]

Standard battlemaster maneuver.

Uses their multiple attacks. Either has the brawler feat or is a monk (see below).

Opposed grapple.

Shove/knock prone

Knock unconscious with a melee attack is standard rule.


So, multiple rounds, maybe an action surge thrown in. Nothing here that using maneuvers either because the fighter is a battlemaster or is using Tasha's.

Personally I'd stat Bourne as a monk, not a fighter. But a brawler fighter battlemaster would also work. It's just a matter describing the fight cinematically.

There is no standard battlemaster maneuver which allows you to prevent someone from performing an attack or using a held item.
Neither Brawler nor Monk abilities allow you to put someone in a chokehold.
An opposed grapple does not deal damage.
He was pushing off from a piece of furniture, and was actually lower than the opponent (which is good for leverage), shove / knock prone is not at all an equivalent thing.
The whole point was them being incapacitated -without- being unconscious, restrained, or dead. I'm aware the standard rule is that they get knocked unconscious.
Sorry, but no. You can -describe- these things, and try to Make a fight seem cinematic, but mechanically, you cannot -do- these things, with or without maneuvers, within the constraints of the rules as written. They require DM adjudication, or they don't happen.

 

[FrozenNorth]

And reasons that you can't bypass it.

They have something you need.
You're supposed to take them out.
There's a dimensional anchor in the room

It's white room, because you're presenting only exactly what you need to enable you to avoid an encounter and then being like, "Aha! See! Spellcasters will avoid 2 encounters a day!" I mean, hell, you specifically made one a trickery cleric in order to white room that encounter a way.

The reality of gameplay is that sort of avoidance is possible, but not something that is even remotely reliable.

Except, you’re the one who is whiterooming here. You’re coming up with reasons why a certain approach wouldn’t work, and assuming a party would do it anyway. You are missing the forest for the trees.

My point was that in an 11th level party with a bard, cleric and wizard, there are enough high level spell slots that the fighter will be overshadowed even without the party using up all of its spells.

I even pointed out one way it could happen.

Aha! You responded! Dimension door doesn’t allow you to bypass fights!

Except, yes it can. And once again, losing the forest for the trees. There are a lot of spells, some as early as 2nd level, that trivialize combat. Throw enough spells at the problem, and the fighter is going to feel pretty useless.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

What about this thought exercise:

Imagine a world where RPGs didn't start with D&D or any fantasy RPGs. They evolved first as modern or sci fi mostly but the same kind of base mechnics were explored and evolved over the years so we got D20 type games, d6 games, Fate, Cortex, etc. D&D itself with all it's baggage never existed.

Someone with game designer background decides to make a d20 Fantasy game and comes up with basically 5e. They do the core rules first and the first Class they make is the 5e Wizard. They think "yeah, this pretty cool. I'm happy with this and we should use this as the benchmark for all other classes."

Does anyone think the design team would come up with anything like the current Fighter as the "equivalent martial class"?

 

[Maxperson]

<Insert more on HP to detail thread>

I have no intention of discussing hit points or warlords. I'm just curious if they could do that or not.

 

[Cadence]

What about this thought exercise:

Imagine a world where RPGs didn't start with D&D or any fantasy RPGs. They evolved first as modern or sci fi mostly but the same kind of base mechnics were explored and evolved over the years so we got D20 type games, d6 games, Fate, Cortex, etc. D&D itself with all it's baggage never existed.

Someone with game designer background decides to make a d20 Fantasy game and comes up with basically 5e. They do the core rules first and the first Class they make is the 5e Wizard. They think "yeah, this pretty cool. I'm happy with this and we should use this as the benchmark for all other classes."

Does anyone think the design team would come up with anything like the current Fighter as the "equivalent martial class"?

With that ordering? No.

I don't think they would have come up with the current Wizard to start things off either though

That being said, I like your thought process, and it's one I've been using for a game idea I'm playing with. I'm starting with how I think the Wizard would work since I think magic has the biggest effect on world building.