D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Mort]

I'm not sure I see that. The Paladin is still swinging the same weapon, with the same Fighting Style and damage bonus as the Fighter.
Even looking at the Battlemaster and assuming the apparently rather unusual full two-short-rest adventuring day, the point at which a Paladin gets more d8s through smites as the battlemaster gets d8s through superiority dice is only 5th level.

The actual damage potential will vary with level. Depending on Action Surge and the extra ASI that the Fighter gets or the Paladin levelling into new spell slots. I don't see an equivalent Fighter "easily outpace" a Paladin.

I should have been more specific on my claim.

1. It assumes the proper number of rests (2 short between long rests). Not every campaign gets there all the time.

2. It assumes the "proper" number of encounters over the adventuring day. If you have very few the paladin can often nova which will put him over the top.

3. It assumes the fighter is actually built for damage, and that feats are used. Without feats I think the position will generally be higher damage. With feats such polarm master, great weapon master and sharpshooter - they really help the fighter. Yes the paladin CAN take them, but he's just a bit more MAD (though the fighter is more MAD then the wizard) and gets 1-2 less feats depending on level.

4. I kept track of damage at be level 11+ even the fighter gets the extra, extra attack. That likely makes a HUGE difference, especially when feats are used.

5. We're still talking only DPR. As a half caster the paladin gets A LOT more versatility than the fighter, especially in exploration and social

I'm not sure I see that. The Paladin is still swinging the same weapon, with the same Fighting Style and damage bonus as the Fighter.
Even looking at the Battlemaster and assuming the apparently rather unusual full two-short-rest adventuring day, the point at which a Paladin gets more d8s through smites as the battlemaster gets d8s through superiority dice is only 5th level.

The actual damage potential will vary with level. Depending on Action Surge and the extra ASI that the Fighter gets or the Paladin levelling into new spell slots. I don't see an equivalent Fighter "easily outpace" a Paladin.

I suppose "easily..." was overly hyperbolic.

The fighter will out DPR the paladin if:

1. You have the "proper" amount of rests (2 short between long). Not all campaigns stick to the structure.

2. You have the "proper" number of encounters. Too few and the paladin can NOVA way too often. And the paladin can NOVA more than the fighter can action surge.

3. I should have specified level 11+ when the fighter gets a third attack. That's where I kept track of damage.

4. The fighter has to be built for DPR, which generally means feats, and the big feats like polarm master, sharpshooter, great Watson master or crossbow expert. The fighter had just a bit more room for feats as levels increase as they get 1-2 more and are slightly less MAD then the paladin.

So, yeah, overly hyperbolic in on my part. As the fighter has to be built for DPR, the paladin doesn't really. Their damage is intrinsic in the class features. Plus, outside of DPR, the paladin will have more versatility and a LOT more utility in pilars outside of combat.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm not sure I see that. The Paladin is still swinging the same weapon, with the same Fighting Style and damage bonus as the Fighter.
Even looking at the Battlemaster and assuming the apparently rather unusual full two-short-rest adventuring day, the point at which a Paladin gets more d8s through smites as the battlemaster gets d8s through superiority dice is only 5th level.

The actual damage potential will vary with level. Depending on Action Surge and the extra ASI that the Fighter gets or the Paladin levelling into new spell slots. I don't see an equivalent Fighter "easily outpace" a Paladin.

Assuming 2 short rests, action surge gives a fighter three full actions more than a Paladin with the same initiative rolls.

At 5th level action surge fighter is making is 6 more attacks per day than a Paladin assuming 2 short rests. At 11th level assuming six 4-turn combats, a fighter is making 33 more attacks per day than a Paladin (24 turns of combat with 1 more attack each plus 9 attacks on action surges). That is quite a lot to make up with smites.

Even if we assume only 3 fights a day, as long as he gets his short rests in he is still getting 21 more attacks per day at 11th level.

Also a fighter has more options for fighting style and the extra feat while keeping the same baseline damage. On point buy, at 8th level he is substantially ahead because of the feat, if building for damage either he is running a higher strength/dex or he is regularly getting an extra attack on top of action surge. By the time the Paladin catches up, the fighter is getting 3 attacks per round.

Finally it is very easy to make an effective ranged fighter, it is much harder to make an effective ranged Paladin.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Assuming 2 short rests, action surge gives a fighter three full actions more than a Paladin with the same initiative rolls.

At 5th level action surge fighter is making is 6 more attacks per day than a Paladin assuming 2 short rests. At 11th level assuming six 4-turn combats, a fighter is making 33 more attacks per day than a Paladin (24 turns of combat with 1 more attack each plus 9 attacks on action surges.

OK. It looks like you have changed the comparison to only base class, no subclass.
So let us have a look at your maths:
6 more attacks a day at 5th level, compared to 14d8s worth of extra damage.
Fighter needs to average 15 damage a hit to keep up. That is seriously impressive at 5th level without reducing hit chance.

At 11th level 33 more attacks compared to 57d8s worth of extra damage.
Fighter needs to average 11 damage a hit to keep up. That is more reasonable

That is quite a lot to make up with smites.

It looks like they're doing fairly well. Not keeping level, but certainly not "easily outpace" levels which is what I was responding to.

Even if we assume only 3 fights a day, as long as he gets his short rests in he is still getting 21 more attacks per day at 11th level.

21 more attacks compared to 43d8s worth of extra damage.
Fighter needs to average 14 damage a hit to keep up. Again, probably do-able, but not "easily outpace" simple to achieve.

And note that we are not only using an average of 3 short rests a day, we are also assuming no critical hits. Both assumptions of which are unrealistic and both of which favour the Fighter.
These numbers are taking to account the extra ASI the Fighter gets, by giving them a higher chance to hit at 11th level compared to the Paladin.

 

[Marcotic]

OK. It looks like you have changed the comparison to only base class, no subclass.
So let us have a look at your maths:
6 more attacks a day at 5th level, compared to 14d8s worth of extra damage.
Fighter needs to average 15 damage a hit to keep up. That is seriously impressive at 5th level without reducing hit chance.

At 11th level 33 more attacks compared to 57d8s worth of extra damage.
Fighter needs to average 11 damage a hit to keep up. That is more reasonable

It looks like they're doing fairly well. Not keeping level, but certainly not "easily outpace" levels which is what I was responding to.

21 more attacks compared to 43d8s worth of extra damage.
Fighter needs to average 14 damage a hit to keep up. Again, probably do-able, but not "easily outpace" simple to achieve.

And note that we are not only using an average of 3 short rests a day, we are also assuming no critical hits. Both assumptions of which are unrealistic and both of which favour the Fighter.
These numbers are taking to account the extra ASI the Fighter gets, by giving them a higher chance to hit at 11th level compared to the Paladin.

Are you factoring damage per hit or damage per attack or using those terms loosely? DPA is a bit more complicated to factor, but will give you a more accurate read. Still, I think 11 damage per attack is definitely doable for a damage focused fighter.

 

[DND_Reborn]

So how does any of this discussion about fighter and paladin damage reflect on the topic of the thread: are wizard's really all that?

 

[Cadence]

So how does any of this discussion about fighter and paladin damage reflect on the topic of the thread: are wizard's really all that?

"If we nerf Wizards, do we also..."
see: D&D 5E - Are Wizards really all that?

 

[DND_Reborn]

"If we nerf Wizards, do we also..."
see: D&D 5E - Are Wizards really all that?

It's tangential at best, and really not even that IMO.

Paladin's are not Wizards.

 

[Cadence]

It's tangential at best, and really not even that IMO.

Paladin's are not Wizards.

The original post uses "wizard" one time and "caster" six times and seems to focus on martial vs. caster instead of the thread title. The remaining posts on the first page of the thread use "caster" about twice as often as "wizard". etc...

 

[DND_Reborn]

The original post uses "wizard" one time and "caster" six times and seems to focus on martial vs. caster instead of the thread title. The remaining posts on the first page of the thread use "caster" about twice as often as "wizard". etc...

Paladins aren't casters, either, they are half-casters. And fighter's aren't either.

I understand how thread get off topic, I'm just trying to get it back on topic. Probably pointless after 80 pages...

 

[ECMO3]

OK. It looks like you have changed the comparison to only base class, no subclass.
So let us have a look at your maths:
6 more attacks a day at 5th level, compared to 14d8s worth of extra damage
Fighter needs to average 15 damage a hit to keep up. That is seriously impressive at 5th level without reducing hit chance.

14d8 is 63 damage on average.

63 damage on 6 attacks is 10.5 not 15.

I will admit this is flawed and favors the fighter. This number is per attack, but some attacks miss while the smite dice always hit.

On the flip side the Paladin actually has to make enough hits against enemies and at a time it matters to get the most out of the 14d8, but at this level he can probably do that.

IRL your 15 per attack is probably close to accurate given a moderate hit percentage (65%) and 4 rounds per fight.

At 11th level 33 more attacks compared to 57d8s worth of extra damage.

I think at max it is 35d8, not 57d8: Four 1st = 8d8, three 2nd = 9d8, three 3rd = 12d8, two more 2nd level using channel divinity = 6d8

8+9+12+6 = 35

35d8=157.5 damage on average

157.5/33 = 4.8 damage per hit.

Also here it is not guaranteed you will be able to meaningfully use all those smites. Assuming 4-round fights there is only 48 attacks in that time and some of them are on the tail end where high damage won't all land.

Here the fighter is ahead.

21 more attacks compared to 43d8s worth of extra damage.

I think it is 35d8 here too.

157.5/21 = 7.5

Here the fighter is ahead and you will be really pressed to use all those spell slots meaningfully in only 12 rounds of combat.

And note that we are not only using an average of 3 short rests a day, we are also assuming no critical hits. Both assumptions of which are unrealistic and both of which favour the Fighter.

We are using 2 short rests a day not 3. A fighter who got 3 short rests a day would have 4 action surges a day.

Mathematically the expected value is 2 critical hits per day using six four-round fights as your baseline for the Paladin. The expected value for the fighter is 3 critical hits at 5th level and 4 critical hits per day at 11th level.

Critical hits are not going to change the math much at 11th level because if you crit fish you will have problems using all your slots for smite and problems with the damage all landing.

Crits probably do matter at 5th level, but you would need to use a representative AC and hit point value for the enemies as well as a codified strategy to figure out how much.