Armour Dilemma: Am I Wrong Here?

[coyote6]

It sounds like the player overreacted, rather majorly. OTOH, we do have only one side, so it's hard to say for sure.

As for the situation -- I think it's a nice setup. However, it is harsh -- a PC was killed in a campaign I play in when we were attacked by a troll at night -- no armor, and he got rended. So the ECL (and XP) ought to be bumped up, and the GM should be aware that character death (given the vampires, permanent character death, since the victims would end up vamped) is quite likely.

I also think that a sudden attack like this would leave some time; unless the PCs were sacked out right next door to the location of the attack, it ought to have taken some time for the PCs to go out, find the source of the explosion, and figure out, "vamps loose, imminent disaster" -- certainly enough time for the other PCs to have armored up, at least hastily. So either the disaster (140 dead and soon-to-be-new-vampires) should have happened already, or the PCs that didn't go check things out should've had time to armor up already, and be on the way.

Certainly, the players could've done other things -- backup armor (chain or mithral shirt pajamas, bracers of armor, etc.), emergency mage armor (via sorcerer, scroll, or wand -- a wand of mage armor is 750 gp, and quite handy in emergencies), run out naked, or whatever. However, I don't think they were idiots for choosing to get armored up; from the description given here, it doesn't sound like it was Blatantly Obvious that they were all needed now. The explosion could've been a grain silo meeting a careless lantern, after all.

FWIW, 12th level characters going naked to fight multiple D&D vampire wizards sounds like a good way to end up with 6th or 8th effective level characters, if not vampire ex-PCs.

 

[D'karr]

...

FWIW, 12th level characters going naked to fight multiple D&D vampire wizards sounds like a good way to end up with 6th or 8th effective level characters, if not vampire ex-PCs.

Probably the exact same thoughts that were going through the minds of the 3 armor donning characters.

 

[Thels]

Heh, with 8 players in your party, IMHO, you got a crowd. DM really gotta keep an eye on things, and having all the players together really helps, no doubt about it.

I read the top post again and noted that the characters woke up due to an explosion. Now I ask, why would hearing an explosion be a reason to get into armor ASAP?

Coyote is right about the fact that the DM should keep in mind that when you do strike the party when they're without their armors, you keep in mind that the characters are indeed fighting quite below their normal character level.

I wonder though if this was the 1st time the party ran into this kind of situation. That could probably be annoying. If they occasionally got attacked overnight in the woods, then they should have experience with such situations and know how to deal with it.

We only got one view of the situation though...

 

[Airwolf]

I still think fusangite was correct in using this encounter and enforcing the rules regarding how long it takes to don armor.

What I don't understand is why some of the other party members didn't stay and help put the armor on. If the character has help, it takes only half the time.

I am sure every party would handle the situation a little differently. I suspect my party would have done something like this:

DM: You awake to the sound of a huge explosion near by.
Bard: Wow, what was that? Maybe someone should check it out.
Rogue: I'll go, you guys get ready if I come back in a hurry with something big chasing me.
Paladin and 2 Clerics: Hey bard and wizard, can you help us get into our armor if there is a fight. (One character can help two others don armor thus reducing the time.)

If one of the characters has a familiar it could have been sent to scout and report.

The situation just wasn't handled very well by the party as a whole.

 

[D'karr]

...
I read the top post again and noted that the characters woke up due to an explosion. Now I ask, why would hearing an explosion be a reason to get into armor ASAP?

Does it really matter why? Maybe because an explosion like that could only mean that someone is attacking the city and we better be prepared, etc... It doesn't matter why. The characters made a decision based on the information they were given and those that could have changed their perception, the other PCs went and got someone else, seemingly without even going to get the rest of the party. There are levels upon levels of metagaming here but the problem is not related to that.

By 12th level most parties figure that if something happens in the middle of the night they better get fully prepared. Its like Pavlov's dog. Right or wrong it doesn't matter that is the way things happen because most of the time they've been conditioned to react that way.

 

[buzzard]

I think the player is a whiner, and if he doesn't return, there is no loss.

This whole situation is only marginally different from a night ambush, which every party has been exposed to. My party has been ambushed enough times that the front line sleeps in spare chain shirts. Sure, the AC is a fair amount less, but it's something. They will also be investing in either called or ease enchantments. At 12th level either enchanment is easily affordable. Also since one of the armor donning folk was a cleric, he could have had that chain shirt, and cast magic vestment on it. This would not have left him very put out.

An experience bonus may have been in order, but someone flying off the handle when exposed an expectable situation is unreasonable.

To those who think the situation was overly harsh, try to recall yes we are trying to have fun, but making every encounter easy is not the solution.

buzzard

 

[barsoomcore]

fusangite:

Nope, you weren't wrong, and certainly you didn't deserve any sort of verbal abuse.

That said, you might (I say might because I have a limited view of the situation) have missed a couple of boats:

1. Did the armor-donning players understand the situation completely?
2. Did the armor-donning players have reason to believe they'd be successful without their armour?
3. Did you have some sort of backup plan for characters who for whatever reason couldn't get involved?
   [/list=1]
   Point being here that as it was your responsibility to make sure everybody had a chance to have fun, it probably wasn't perfect DMing to leave characters donning armour through the entire encounter. I know that sometimes players do things that boggle our minds and force us to twist and warp our plans in order to stave off disaster, but hey
   
   That's why we're the DMs. We kick butt. We're smart and creative and our non-DMing friends are in awe of our abilities.
   
   Certainly there's nothing wrong with planning to catch players off guard and forcing them to think up new strategies that don't depend on tactics they've already developed (can you base strategies on tactics? Never Mind), but at the same time you as Mr. DM have a responsibility to be as flexible as you can be in making sure that everyone has a chance to play.
   
   Not get what they want, not receive sudden special abilities (like instant armor) just because they think they should, but a chance to play and not spend an entire encounter chugging through the result of one decision.

 

[Pelenor]

I think I'll comment on the abuse bit first. If a player ever did that to me he and I would have a little chat with him when he came back. He would have been told that if he did that again he would be out on his ear. No discussion, no argument he would be gone if there was a repeat incident.

As far as the situation. The big question is was it clear that the party could have handled this challenge without their armour. Assumeing they could have and there isn't any more to it than what we see hear. Then sure you did nothing wrong. Parties should have challenges like this at times. And I see this situation as something of a moral test for the characters one which some of them had obviosly failed badly. After all they chose themselves over a group of innocents. So much for being heroes.

On the other hand if this is a challenge they could not have won without the armour that's different. The only time I ever personally place challenges that the characters can't win in front of them is if it advances the plot of the adventure or campaign in some way (i.e. I have a really good reason).

 

[orangefruitbat]

How to fix the problem

Simple, have a second group of vampires burst into the bedroom and attack the group suiting up.

I'd give them a -2 circumstance bonus for being caught with the (chain) pants down, but at least it would give them something to do. And if the players put up a good fight, the monsters could flee leaving those characters the explicit choice of following the monsters, or finishing puting their armor on.

Improvising is key when DMing.

 

[coyote6]

Having "two men with guns burst through the door" would handle the PCs-with-nothing-to-do problem (and is advice I often try to follow ), but it might leave the other PCs overmatched (if the vampire fight was designed to challenge 8 PCs, 5 might be in trouble, esp. since the healer was apparently one of the stay-behinds).

Perhaps some wimpy foes, that the armor lovers could quickly dispatch, would be appropriate; it gives the armor guys something to do immediately, and maybe tips them off that the situation is too time critical for them to spend minutes getting dressed.

Oh, BTW, I think there's a spell in the Book of Hallowed Might that might help the armored characters -- armored contingency is a Clr1, Pal1 spell that lasts an hour/level, and lets you instantly don your armor in the event of a preset contingency. The PCs might want to research that spell . . .