Ars Magica: Lumen Montis, A Covenant in the Alps [OOC]

[Feir Fireb]

Clarification

Beyond his knowledge of hermetic law, I hadn't thought a whole lot about any Quaesitorial ability Matteo may have to actually enforce our claim, assuming it's good enough to work with. Again, the Ars Magica core rules just don't have a lot of info on Quaesitorial rights and responsibilities. Are Wizard's Grimoire or Order of Hermes particularly useful on this subject? If it works to our advantage, that would make a big difference in terms of whether or not Matteo accompanies a group back to Monthey. Also, if his knowledge of the specifics and generals of the case is lacking, he'd take about a day between conversations to consult any available texts or elder magi.

It would be nice to know how hard it is to get that extra-spiffy copying bonus, but copying is something Matteo can theoretically do another season, whereas it would be good to establish a solid claim to our covenant's land now.

Also, hypothetically, if our claim on the valley is solid but Karl's on his sanctum is also solid, there's no reason we might not try to negotiate for him to move his sanctum to elsewhere within the valley.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

Feir Fireb and Malacat have raised several questions that I'll try to answer in this post.

1. How difficult is it to produce a superior copy? Not very for some characters- you make a Dex+Scribe Latin stress roll. 12+ produces a bonus, 5 or less produces a penalty, and botches produce a giant penalty making the book nigh worthless.

2. Is there room to share the high magic aura? Well, sorta. There is room for a bunch of ordinary sized sancta (each including living quarters and a laboratory), as well as a few shared buildings. However, it would be awfully intrusive and awkward to have a sanctum of a noncovenant member in among them. There would be enough physical room, but ordinarily sancta are not very close to each other, to avoid conflict. (For example, someone travelling within the covenant's bounds could appear to be approaching Karl's sanctum in a threatening manner, which could lead to violence.) Also, there are inherent problems with freeloading; efforts to defend the covenant would also protect Karl, and if Karl produced enemies, they might easily threaten the whole covenant. So it could be done, but it would be hard. Getting Karl to accept it might be difficult.

3. Quaesitorial powers: The role of Quaesitors and how tribunals work is covered to some extent in The Wizard's Grimoire, but don't feel any need to get that. Ordinarily, Quaesitors do not have significant authority over other magi. They are treated with respect, and they are allowed a fair amount of investigatory power (such that they can make inquiries that would otherwise be treated as invading the privacy of other magi), but the Order is essentially governed by votes of magi in councils, not by Quaesitores decreeing what hermetic law is. (Quaesitores do have some special powers during councils and especially tribunals, but that's not important right now.) So while Matteo might be able to persuade Karl to some extent by arguing that he knows what the tribunal would do, he doesn't have any power to settle the legal conflict directly. Besides, when a Quaesitor acts on his own behalf or on behalf of his covenant, he will be treated as less authoritative (and if his actions are sketchy he may draw negative attention from more senior members of his House that seek to preserve the Quaesitor reputation for impartiality).

4. So, how strong is Karl's claim anyway, and what could we do to undermine it? You clearly could set up your own covenant outside his sanctum and have a strong argument that that was legal. He might object, but since he is a lone magus who is not a member of any recognized covenant, and your tribunal forbids new covenants and is hostile to "vagrant" magi, it is all but assured that the tribunal would not uphold any claims he made that that violated his rights. On the other hand, intruding into the area that he has marked as his sanctum (the high aura area) would be very risky, unless you got a stronger claim on it (such as bribing him out of it, or winning certamen over it). He could use lethal force to defend his sanctum, and the tribunal would be unlikely to take any action against him. You could also try to dislodge him by bringing your (basically superior) claim before the tribunal, but while you would probably win, that would involve a delay and would require spending political capital that you may want to save for more important purposes. Allowing him to remain at his sanctum while settling elsewhere in the valley significantly increases the likelihood that the tribunal would recognize your claim to all of the valley except his sanctum. So you could fairly safely (legally) set up a covenant elsewhere in the valley, regardless of Karl's attitude towards it, but doing so might result in losing the best bit of the valley when a tribunal finally sorts out the conflict.

5. What does Matteo know of Karl? Not a whole lot. You know he is a young magus, not far from his gauntlet; while he may be a little more powerful than you, it's probably not by much. You think his parens's primary research interests were Animal, Herbam, and Muto. Neither he nor his parens have particularly good reputations or many allies in the Order.

6. How much is Matteo likely to help with negotiations? Some, but not a lot. Several people in the covenant have a similar (or higher) level of bargaining skill. His reputation as a Quaesitor should help some, but not very much, because this isn't really Quaesitorial business.

I think that should answer most of the questions that were out there.

Anyone else who wants to share an opinion on what to do, now's the time to do it; I plan to post the next step in this by Friday or so. Currently, Brigitta is strongly in favor of certamen; Tsaran supports trying to share the high aura area, with certamen as his preferred fallback, and bribing with LQs as a second fallback; Matteo seems to prefer bribing with LQs, and is very worried about certamen; and Celeste wants a negotiated solution (and is strongly opposed to Wizard War, which nobody is advocating). I'd really rather have more opinions so that I don't have to just toss some intrigue rolls to sort this out, but I'm going to go forward soon regardless.

 

[Malacat]

A couple of things:

Given the impracticality of sharing the best part of the valley, Tsaran's interest in sharing is dramatically lessened. Here's another option which he is likely to propose:

We negotiate two options with Karl, then settle which one we follow through certámen, thus hedging our bets. Unnegotiated terms:

If Karl wins, he gets the valley and we find somewhere else.
If Tsaran wins, we get the valley and Karl finds somewhere else.

Neotiated terms might include:

1. Whether Karl wins or loses, he gets to read a certain number of our LQs.
2. If Karl loses, he has the option of petitioning to join our covenant.
3. The losing side gets to remain, loses its claim on the strongest aura, and may establish itself elsewhere in the valley (sufficiently far away as to not cause the problems Cerebral Paladin has outlined) -- I note that this option in itself doesn't differ from the current "no certámen" option unless Tsaran wins.
4. Whoever wins, we get the strongest aura for the covenant and Karl either gets some other part of the valley (if he loses) or has to leave the valley (if he wins).

Tsaran favors the combination of options 1, 2, and 4. He also notes that Karl may choose to accept the LQ reading offer in exchange for moving on, though he doesn't think it likely.

The second point has to do with something Matteo said to Polybius on fighting a Wizard War, which I don't know if either would have repeated to the others:

"The consequences could be almost as unpredictable as certamen, the means less honorable, and the stakes our very lives."

OOC I have no particular objection to this phrasing, but IC Tsaran will react very strongly to the suggestion, if he knows of it, that a plan of action he conceived is in any way lacking in honor. The simplest thing would be for us to rule that, since no one is advocating a Wizard War, Matteo's opinion isn't made sufficiently clear for Tsaran to take umbrage. The more RP-intensive approach would be the opposite, of course, though since we're up against a Friday deadline we could also rule that Matteo mentions his opinion to Tsaran after Karl's been resolved (this would allow Feir Fireb and me time to discuss how the ensuing conversation with Matteo and Tsaran would go). Thoughts or suggestions, anyone?

 

[Malacat]

On Tsaran vs. Karl

Karl has demonstrated some proficiency in Intélligo and Aquam (by casting the Subtle Taste of Poison and Purity -- am I right that that's what he cast when Tsaran offered him food?). His parens are, Matteo reports, strong in Muto, Herbam, and Animál. It seems likely that Karl himself is reasonably strong in Muto, Herbam, and Animál, with some lesser talent in a few of the other areas. So far as I've heard, he hasn't had much opportunity to engage in certámen, so Tsaran probably has the edge there. If Tsaran picks something other than Muto (Creo, perhaps -- or is that too likely to be a strong suit for Karl?), and Karl picks Herbam or Animál, I think Tsaran would probably have a slight edge.

Vís, of course, seriously alters the equation. I think it's reasonable to spend a little vís to get the stronger aura, given that having it means everything we do there will cost less vís and any vís harvesting we do there will be more productive. Alternatively, we could negotiate the amount of vís to be used (Cerebral Paladin, could violations of such an agreement on Karl's part be detectable on our parts?), or even throw an amount of vís into the pot instead of spending it (the winning side gets the good aura *and* the lion's share of the vís that would have been spent). Hm. Actually, that last could be exploited by whichever side has the most vís -- "Okay, you'd spend five pawns and we'd spend seven, so we'll put a total of ten pawns in the pot, and our guy will only spend two pawns -- oh, you'll match that? Okay, we'll see your seven and our guy will still spend two more..." So maybe we should just negotiate a no vís match. Or not bring it up.

 

[Feir Fireb]

Gah. enworld ate my post. Here's a modified version, tailored to include Malacat's replies.

Thanks, CP. That helps clear things up a bit. You've got Matteo's position basically right: I think we can drive a hard bargain on this if we keep Karl's interests in mind but come from a position of strength, and ought to try to do so: Approach him in a friendly manner, assert our right and intention to settle in the valley (as well as the various aspects of our claim that make it more solid than his).

Once we've established that several of us basically like him and understand his point of view but that we have the right to settle in the valley, whether he approves or not, we can enter more formal negotiations (i.e. bribery esp. via access to LQ) with a hierarchy of goals. Best option: try to get him to leave altogether. Assert that we'll settle in the valley, conjecture (if it's not too sketchy) that some of us may well even decide to settle close to his sanctum, the tribunal will recognize our claim to the whole valley for x, y, z reasons (mostly aforementioned by CP), and he'll just get kicked out eventually if he doesn't take it. In the long run, our claim is better than his and he'd be better off with what we bribes have to offer. Second best: if he's not willing to leave altogether, maybe we would be willing to let him settle permanently in the other high magic area of our valley [Magic 4] while we settle in the lake area [Magic 5], and we can provide other incentives as well if he does so peacefully (such as LQ access, and maybe occasional lab access if necessary).

If Karl is still unimpressed with our claim to the whole valley and our attempts to negotiate his moving without a fuss: We ought to settle somewhere in the valley anyways, it's just a question of where, and how. Matteo is uncertain how best to approach this. He'd be willing to go for the the other high magic
area [4] which we can get without negotiations, given the potential complications of settling right next to Karl, but would then propose maybe Karl would be negotiate some access to the area right around his sanctum [Magic 5] for the purposes of setting up one or more labs and for gathering vis. If we can set up a lab better than Karl possesses by using money borrowed from Lemannus, we might even allow occasional access to it. Matteo's not completely adverse to the idea of just setting up shop (or part of a shop) next to Karl to assert a better claim come tribunal time, but rather doubts that the extra tribunal advantage would be significant enough to warrant the likely agitation and legal risk.

Matteo would only go with certamen as a fallback to further negotiations and even then only if we could define the scope of the disagreement down to merely the mountain lake rather than the whole valley, which we shouldn't risk at all (later edit: Tsaran's negotiated options would cover this. The unnegotiated options are unacceptable to Matteo, considering that we can already legally settle elsewhere in the Valley without much trouble. Having expected an aura of 3, even 4 is a bonus already). I think we could muster up enough bluff vis to make Karl want to not risk certamen with us. Even then, Matteo would still prefer not to use certamen, given the vis cost. We should consider first offering part or even all of the amount we're willing and able to burn (which for any given technique/form combination is presumably on the order of a rook given our supply's composition, maybe a bit more). And we should keep Tsaran and Karl's anticipated strengths and weaknesses in mind in choosing vis (and again, Karl may have an affinity, say for goats, that would provide a bonus if he chose the form).

If we've gotten to the point where we're negotiating how much vis to use, we've already lost certamen (unless Karl's the one who brought it up).

It sounds like my initial appraisal with regards to Matteo joining the negotiating party still holds, too: if we can send another as good as or better negotiator than Matteo, have them go equipped with solid legal advice. Otherwise, Matteo is willing to go, and would try to rely more upon his bargaining skill and knowledge of the law than any Quaesitorial status. If anybody does anything too threatening, he may be obligated to intervene on Karl's behalf. It looks like Matteo's not likely to have any major difficulties postponing his copying to another date, though botching the summae would be deeply unfortunate.

If Matteo does go, he attempts "Circular Ward Against Demons" before going to sleep while outside the confines of an Aegis (unless he has good reason not to), and uses "Aura of Ennobled Presence" during negotiations (again, unless he has good reason not to, though the only reason I can think of would be direct negotiations with a powerful or focused wizard who's likely to have lots of Intelligo Vim, and this doesn't sound like Karl).

Will cover honor later. Shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

Just a quick message re: negotiating vis use during certamen. Matteo knows that longstanding, solid precedents establish that vis can be used in certamen regardless of whether an opponent expected vis to be used. Later tribunal rulings extended that to preclude any binding agreements not to use raw vis to affect certamen. (An agreement to not use vis that was honored by both parties would be fine, but if one side broke the agreement, the results of the certamen duel would still be considered valid by other magi.) He thinks that agreeing to certamen over a supply of vis, and promising to not draw from that supply during the duel, would be legal; this is sometimes used to settle contested claims ("We both found this vis supply and can't agree who owns it" situations).

So you won't be able to reach a binding agreement with Karl to not use vis if you fight certamen. Of course, nothing prevents displaying vis to convince someone to back down without certamen.

 

[Feir Fireb]

A couple of things:

"The consequences could be almost as unpredictable as certamen, the means less honorable, and the stakes our very lives."

OOC I have no particular objection to this phrasing, but IC Tsaran will react very strongly to the suggestion, if he knows of it, that a plan of action he conceived is in any way lacking in honor. The simplest thing would be for us to rule that, since no one is advocating a Wizards' War, Matteo's opinion isn't made sufficiently clear for Tsaran to take umbrage. The more RP-intensive approach would be the opposite, of course, though since we're up against a Friday deadline we could also rule that Matteo mentions his opinion to Tsaran after Karl's been resolved (this would allow Feir Fireb and me time to discuss how the ensuing conversation with Matteo and Tsaran would go). Thoughts or suggestions, anyone?

Matteo is unlikely to deliberately use this particular phrasing again, though if the subject of Wizards' War comes up again in another context besides his meeting with Polybius (such as in Tsaran's hearing) he would certainly note his disapproval. In the context of the original conversation, "less honorable" is shorthand for "less fair to Karl and less likely to gain us the approval of our peers". "After all", he would note, "why should we require the death of another magus who, though fundamentally an interloper, is not entirely indefensible in his claim?"

Matteo could, if necessary, rattle of an even longer list of reasons why certamen is in most cases a better method of conflict resolution than Wizards' War. I would not be entirely surprised if Matteo, attempting clarity, spoke in a way that might give some indeliberate offense, but upon seeing the beginnings of Tsaran's umbrage made a genuine effort at amends. He would appeal to Tsaran's already established rapport with Karl and his perspective, and would emphasize his confidence in Tsaran's ability to conduct a Wizards' War honorably once waged. As a Quaesitor, he understands that Wizards' War has its proper place, but the clause of the Hermetic Oath which forbids further retribution can be difficult to apply in the context of a tribunal vote, and in any event the Order is generally better off without slaughter of magi in circumstances where other recourses would suffice. From what he knows of Tsaran as an individual, Matteo genuinely likes him and respects his sense of honor, and would prefer to explain his own position in a way that Tsaran could accept.

Malacat mentioned that the subject might not even come up at all. If we're able to agree upon an approach to Karl that involves some combination of the other options (bribery, certamen, etc.), I'd suspect he's right, unless of course Karl both entirely rejects our next round of negotiations and declines certamen (or if someone else does prefer Wizards' War). In that case, Wizards' war would likely be the subject of more discussion. But if Malacat is satisfied with my conjecture of how an exchange between Tsaran and Matteo would go, that's fine too. Or Tsaran might still not be mollified, such as if he preferred the openness of declared war to what he remembers of the certamen-driven Tremere, in which case we might have a long and interesting discussion (which we probably ought to post to the IC thread), probably too long for the current time frame.

 

[mckerih]

Karl

Ugh, sorry I've been out of commission, folks. I have a lot of traveling coming up, and it's been crazy getting ready for that, but I may actually have more time once it begins. Anyway, Merin generally agrees with Matteo's thoughts. He's not very eager to undertake a big gamble with certamen and thinks bribes of book-sharing, lab-sharing, and possibly vis are the better approach. Failing that, his feelings are divided between ousting Karl legally or taking the Magic 4 location for ourselves, with certamen ranking slightly below those options. He likes the idea of emphasizing ways in which cooperation would truly be in Karl's best interests, but he's willing to support bluffs/threats if that fails. He's also a pretty decent negotiator, and would be willing to go in Matteo's place if no one better is available.