D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[doctorbadwolf]

My input:

Conceptually, I think there is a place for your concept in the game. To answer how I feel it should differentiate itself from the rogue I would suggest the following.

1. No powered up ranged combat. You can still use bows but your Nova damage should be from melee or thrown.
2. I'd like to see the class built around INT and STR as the two primary stats instead of yet another DEX class.
3. There has to be some give and take for balance. If you want to be the #1 Nova damage class, there is a place for that, but you can't also be as generally good in melee and as tough as Champion Fighter.
4. I think your comparison should be a paladin when determining max Nova potential. I personally feel like the Paladins are too Nova for the games balance and have had multiple encounters ruined by the damage spike.

Suggestions to fit your theme but be less mechanically fiddly.
1. Give the Assassin a base power of using a bonus action to either place a shroud OR attack. This will give them the option of spreading out their attacks fighting normally, or retreating and sizing up an opponent for a few rounds then dashing in and doing a big damage strike.
2. Don't limit shrouds per day, limit the stack you can build up. This way you can do shroud style combat in every encounter.
3. As you gain access to stacking more shrouds, also gain abilities that affect enemies based on how many shrouds they have. For example may e a low level ability is advantage on stealth rolls versus shrouded enemies. This way your general sneak doesn't have to be super high to let you sneak up on opponents.
4. All of your subclasses powers should interact with shrouds and abilities to use on shrouded enemies.
5. Shroud extra damage should only be once per opponent per round...and should use the sneak attack progression as a base. I'd balance it arou d the idea of 2 shrouds being the same damage as a sneak attack. The balance comes in with you DOI g less with one round of prep but more with three. This sets you apart from the rogue.

Strength feels totally wrong for the concept.

I don’t hate the idea of limiting Shrouds on the target, rather than short or long rest. The idea is to fuel most class abilities that need a recharge with Shrouds, though.
Not all, though. Some should just be 1/SR or whatever.
I may write up a version that works that way, and see how it looks.

I’m looking at all the damage dealing weapon users for balance, because they’re all different. Fine tuning will come in once I’ve a first draft up to level 11, and see what it looks like.

Maybe something like:
Slayer strike. when you use the attack action, you can make 2 attacks as a bonus action afterward provided you are making them with a dagger.

Shrouds. You can use your bonus action action to lay a Shroud on a target within 60 ft. A creature can have up to 5 shrouds on it. Each additional Shroud add an extra effect. On your turn, when you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can revoke your Shrouds as a free action, adding 1dX psychic damage per shroud you revoked from the target to your damage roll.

number of shrouds	effect
1	Know current HP when hit
2	Speed Halved for 1 turn when hit.
3	Bleed: take X damage at the start of each turn until it takes an action to make a Wisdom(Medicine) check against Shroud DC (int based) to staunch the bleeding. Magical healing stop the bleeding automatically.
4	Line of Sight reduced to 10 ft.
5	Take +X damage per hit, once per turn.

But too fiddly, for me. I’d like Shrouds to be binary for any effect other than damage. I could see having a secondary damage boost when you have max shrouds on a target. Perhaps reroll damage dice on results of 1 or 2? Just increase the average? Or perhaps add an extra 1d10 when you have max shrouds on a target?

actually, at level 11, I’d like to add “when you invoke your shrouds on a target you can deal an additional 1d10 damage if you are hidden from them, or if they are surprised, poisoned, frightened, or charmed. Additionally, your bleed damage now deals 1d4+intelligence (or proficiency) at the start of the target’s turn.”

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Where on Earth are you getting this notion that anyone is talking about a character who “fights their way through hordes of minions to openly confront their target”?

Well . . . you.
Its the M.O. of a lot of the characters that you have referenced as the inspiration for the class. Pretty sure you have actually talked about the class being able to "clear rooms full of mooks" or similar.

Not dying immediately the moment you are forced to fight someone (and no, no character can ever actually always avoid having to fight someone. There isn’t a skill level where that happens) is not within the same realm as fighting through hordes of anything.

Has anyone mentioned "dying immediately the moment you are forced to fight someone"?
Pretty much any character, even Rogues, who have a much less "up-front" style can manage to not "die immediately the moment they are forced to fight someone".

Hell, we are talking about a class who has to use tactics and stealth to get to their full damage potential, whose combat ability in a stand up fight relies on getting the enemy to overextend and stab them in the throat, or quickly leapin from one gank to either a second gank or to stealth, who accomplishes DPR with a feature that deal damage over time.

what part of that speaks to “soldier”?

The fact you even have a class ability that requires you to be confronting and actively getting attacked by opponents. Even Fighters aren't that dependent on attracting fire. Taking advantage of an opponent who overextends themselves attacking you is a pretty standard fighter-type move, but its just one of the techniques bound into their attack bonus and extra attacks. Your class has a maneuver that specifically replicates that and rewards getting attacked. It encourages the behaviour of getting attacked and so gives the class a playstyle based on that.

The "soldier as a name for a character that might use stealth and cover for advantage, but fights a lot of people" suggestion was to try to help you understand something that you had mentioned had been giving you trouble: that your concept for "assassin" was different to other people's concept for it. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with a clearer explanation for you.

-1 HP doesn’t exist in 5eDnD.

Huh. Good point. Not sure which system I was thinking about there.

2. I'd like to see the class built around INT and STR as the two primary stats instead of yet another DEX class.

Str would certainly fit the "grapple and kill" side of the class, and would help distinguish it from classes with a very similar concept like Rogues, Rangers, and Dex fighters.
However, one of the reason this concept fits so well with Rogues, Rangers, and Dex Fighters is because it is so similar, and making it dump Dex would be against the theme for that reason.

2. Don't limit shrouds per day, limit the stack you can build up. This way you can do shroud style combat in every encounter.
3. As you gain access to stacking more shrouds, also gain abilities that affect enemies based on how many shrouds they have. For example may e a low level ability is advantage on stealth rolls versus shrouded enemies. This way your general sneak doesn't have to be super high to let you sneak up on opponents.

That's a good idea for continuous mayhem rather than killing off specific targets.
Limiting shroud stacks to prof bonus would let you do things like increase crit range against shrouded opponents by the number of shrouds you stack. And/Or having the duration of bleed effects based on the number of shrouds on a target.

That gives an effective way to have low-level but iconic abilities scale with class level and grants tactical play based on how many shrouds you want to stack on a target.
Also gives potential further scaling in that you could apply multiple shrouds with a single ability at traditional "damage boost" levels like 5, 11, etc.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope. Shrouds are the core mechanic of the class, representing the focus and study of a target, and are both the main damage mechanic and the limited resource that the class runs on, analogous to the Monk’s Ki, and the battlemaster’s Superiority Dice.

Then find another name. You aren't designing an Assassin - you are designing a Shroud Warrior.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Got a moment so here is a basic framework of my shroud system to be balanced and expanded.

Shrouds represent and Assassins potential advantage against a possible target. They come about as a result of careful planning and study by the Assasin.

An Assassin can maintain a maximum of Prof+INT bonus number of shrouds at one time. No individual target may have more than PROF bonus number of shrouds assigned to it from any one source, although they may have shrouds from multple sources of facing more than one Assassin.

If the Assassin wants to place a new shroud when they already have the maximum in play they may drop ALL shrouds from a chosen target as a free action.

An Assassin my place 1 shroud on a visible target within 60' as a bonus action. This shroud lasts until invoked, 1 hour has passed, it is dropped, or the Assassin falls unconscious. Placing a should does not, by itself, remove the Assassin from hiding and requires no movement or noise on the Assassin's behalf.

Shroud Enhancements: Each Assassin may use his shrouds in different ways to enhance their abilities versus their foes. These enhancents may have passive effects versus shrouded targets and/or more powerful effects that require Invoking the shroud. When Invoking a shroud the Assassin chooses a target within 60' that they rolled an attack roll against.

All Assassin's gain access to the Vital Strike ability and may choose a further 2 from the following list. Some abilities have certain prerequisites that must be fulfilled. An Assassin will gain access to extra choices from this list as they go up in level. Saves versus shroud enhancements are made and DC=8+PROF+INT

Vital Strike: You deal an extra d4 damage to the target for each shroud you control on that target. Shrouds may be invoked to instead deal an extra d10 damage. All additional damage is considered the same type as the base attack.

Precise Strike: Your crit range against shrouded targets is one higher than normal. Shrouds may Invoked to increase the crit range by an additional one per shroud invoked.

Focused Attack: You have advantage on any melee or thrown attack rolls versus an opponent with a shroud you control. Shrouds my be invoked to either ignore 1 resistance on the target OR convert 1 immunity to resistance for this strikes damage purposes.

Clouded Vision: Opponents with a shroud you control have Disadvantage on Perception rolls to find you when hidden. They also have a penalty to their Passive Perception equal to your PROF bonus for the same purpose.

Weak Will: Opponents with a shroud you control have Disadvantage on saving throws versus your cantrips.

Poisoned Blade: You may Invoke a shroud to force the target to make a CON save or gain the poisoned condition. They may make a new save at the end of each of their turns and no more than one stack of poison may be active at any time.

ETC with some higher level prerequisite abilities comparable to other higher level abilities.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Then find another name. You aren't designing an Assassin - you are designing a Shroud Warrior.

No. At this point you are threadcrapping. Stop.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Well . . . you.
Its the M.O. of a lot of the characters that you have referenced as the inspiration for the class. Pretty sure you have actually talked about the class being able to "clear rooms full of mooks" or similar.

Has anyone mentioned "dying immediately the moment you are forced to fight someone"?
Pretty much any character, even Rogues, who have a much less "up-front" style can manage to not "die immediately the moment they are forced to fight someone".

The fact you even have a class ability that requires you to be confronting and actively getting attacked by opponents. Even Fighters aren't that dependent on attracting fire. Taking advantage of an opponent who overextends themselves attacking you is a pretty standard fighter-type move, but its just one of the techniques bound into their attack bonus and extra attacks. Your class has a maneuver that specifically replicates that and rewards getting attacked. It encourages the behaviour of getting attacked and so gives the class a playstyle based on that.

The "soldier as a name for a character that might use stealth and cover for advantage, but fights a lot of people" suggestion was to try to help you understand something that you had mentioned had been giving you trouble: that your concept for "assassin" was different to other people's concept for it. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with a clearer explanation for you.


Huh. Good point. Not sure which system I was thinking about there.

Str would certainly fit the "grapple and kill" side of the class, and would help distinguish it from classes with a very similar concept like Rogues, Rangers, and Dex fighters.
However, one of the reason this concept fits so well with Rogues, Rangers, and Dex Fighters is because it is so similar, and making it dump Dex would be against the theme for that reason.

That's a good idea for continuous mayhem rather than killing off specific targets.
Limiting shroud stacks to prof bonus would let you do things like increase crit range against shrouded opponents by the number of shrouds you stack. And/Or having the duration of bleed effects based on the number of shrouds on a target.

That gives an effective way to have low-level but iconic abilities scale with class level and grants tactical play based on how many shrouds you want to stack on a target.
Also gives potential further scaling in that you could apply multiple shrouds with a single ability at traditional "damage boost" levels like 5, 11, etc.

You may need to just accept that we disagree, and either get on board with the point of the thread, or find something else to argue about. If you keep harping on this, I’m going to put you on ignore.

Either way, please stop trying to twist disagreement into me not understanding what you’re saying. I get it, and I don’t agree. It’s that simple.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I mean...FWIW....I like the term Edge instead of shroud, which carries a shadowfell feel to me, but it doesn't matter what you call it in the design stage. Proper naming of everything should be step 150 of 151.

 

[FrogReaver]

I mean...FWIW....I like the term Edge instead of shroud, which carries a shadowfell feel to me, but it doesn't matter what you call it in the design stage. Proper naming of everything should be step 150 of 151.

It goes both ways

 

[Umbran]

Then find another name. You aren't designing an Assassin - you are designing a Shroud Warrior.

Mod Note:

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;"
-Juliet, Romeo and Juliet, Act II, Scene II

No. At this point you are threadcrapping. Stop.

"Let it go."
- Queen Elsa, Frozen

And, both of you, if you must make demands, try at least using, "Please."

 

[FrogReaver]

All I'm going to say is consider the Love Cleric.