D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[Tales and Chronicles]

Ah. I understand. I didn't spot the round/turn distinction. Very tanky.

Its a little off, I admit. I had this feature in my ''homebrew classes features folder'' but for a duelist class of some sort. I put it there, but I think it should be changed for something more fitting.

Probably move Evasion to 10th, and find another more interesting feature for 15th level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Isn't this just a standard use of an ability check? Surely it would be the DM's call?


I would recommend not.
I'm not seeing any theme of genius gadgeteer or expert craftsman in this class. No reason that someone of this class would have the ability to make high-tech or magical devices where others who could also use those tools could not.
Sounds like a subclass option.

Its not weird that your concept of an assassin needs an explanation. - It is very different to many other people's concept of what an assassin is. I think that the image of the assassin in many people''s eyes is the consummate professional, who does the job with a minimum of fuss and risk, ensuring they escape to spend their fee. Terry Pratchett's Guild of Assassins for example.
The archetype that you seem to be using, of someone who fights their way through hordes of minions to openly confront their target - just isn't what the word conjures up to a lot of people. "Hitman" or "soldier" might be their words for that concept.
Any example that uses firearms it tricky because their deadliness varies by genre, and D&D is enough of a genre of its own that trying to shoehorn any particular non-D&D example into D&D terms is going to cause issues.
Bond from the books is a definite Assassin. Film Bond depends a lot on who is currently playing him.
I think methods are probably the best indicator of class, since gunplay is hard to use as a measuring stick, and most films involve what is fairly obviously a high-level character mowing down low-level minions.
Single, telling attacks from stealth and then disappearing are more assassin-y. Planned and prepared situations to remove someone who is well-defended seems like the methodology of an assassin, even if the plot means something goes wrong and they don't pull it off flawlessly.
If the character is shooting or disabling enemies rapidly, with occasional bursts of almost-superhuman effort or resilience, that's a fighter. They may use stealth and cover, but if the people they kill are often face-to face with them - fighter.
Hence the issue with trying to visualise what you're trying to do. I'm only familiar with two of those examples. To me, Waylander is very much a Rogue. In 5e, Artemis Entreri is canonically a Fighter.

Where on Earth are you getting this notion that anyone is talking about a character who “fights their way through hordes of minions to openly confront their target”?

Not dying immediately the moment you are forced to fight someone (and no, no character can ever actually always avoid having to fight someone. There isn’t a skill level where that happens) is not within the same realm as fighting through hordes of anything.

Hell, we are talking about a class who has to use tactics and stealth to get to their full damage potential, whose combat ability in a stand up fight relies on getting the enemy to overextend and stab them in the throat, or quickly leapin from one gank to either a second gank or to stealth, who accomplishes DPR with a feature that deal damage over time.

what part of that speaks to “soldier”?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

-1 HP doesn’t exist in 5eDnD.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Ideas my buddy and I had tonight hanging out.

Bleed works against any target under your Shroud, or who is Surprised, Frightened, Poisoned, or Charmed by you or an ally of yours. When you Bleed a target, you choose to either halve their speed, or cause them to be unable to speak. Successful save avoid the damage and secondary effect.

At some point (probably 6) you gain the ability to make an additional attack as part of the attack action in your first turn if you roll initiative and are hidden or if any of your enemies are surprised.


Bonus Action Dodge costs 1 Shroud.

Reaction Parry is free. Spend 1 ki on a success to either attack and move, or move and try to hide. Add Shroud Die to attack’s damage or to Stealth check.

This combined with level 5 situational extra attack, Lethal, and Shrouds, comes together to allow the assassin to clear a room of mooks before they can react or sound an alarm, using stealth, silencing attacks, and a tactical approach, without actually shooting their DPR through the roof. They should be comparable to any other damage focused weapon user.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Balance Question: As designed or imagined now is there anything stopping the Assassin from beginning most battles by sneaking up on the enemy, powering up all the shrouds, then the rest of the party using the supernova attack of the Assassin as the time to charge in? If not, roughly how many times a day do you expect the Assassin to be able to go nova at 5th level.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Balance Question: As designed or imagined now is there anything stopping the Assassin from beginning most battles by sneaking up on the enemy, powering up all the shrouds, then the rest of the party using the supernova attack of the Assassin as the time to charge in? If not, roughly how many times a day do you expect the Assassin to be able to go nova at 5th level.

Good question. Let’s compare it to the assassin rogue.
If the party cooperated with the assassin rogue, they will start most fights with the rogue surprise ganking an enemy. That means advantage on their attack, auto crit if the attack hits. So, (weapon+3d6)2+dex. That’s at-will, but only happens in round 1. Rest of the time they do w+3d6+Dex


A “nova” strike from the assassin would instead have advantage with a 19-20 crit range, and deal weapon+dex+3d10, and get to move and either attack again or hide as part of the attack action if they crit or kill.
Oh, and if they reduce the target to 5hp or fewer, they drop to 0hp instead.
At level 6 or 7(whichever isn’t a subclass Level) they may gain the ability to make an additional attack (so up to 3) if they are hidden or the targets are surprised.

if someone who is good at math wants to calculate the average damages in comparison...

edit: I’d figure that should be possible most fights, so twice a short rest or so. Shrouds equal to level would work.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Drop shrouds for the base class. Sound cool for a subclass though.

Nope. Shrouds are the core mechanic of the class, representing the focus and study of a target, and are both the main damage mechanic and the limited resource that the class runs on, analogous to the Monk’s Ki, and the battlemaster’s Superiority Dice.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

My input:

Conceptually, I think there is a place for your concept in the game. To answer how I feel it should differentiate itself from the rogue I would suggest the following.

1. No powered up ranged combat. You can still use bows but your Nova damage should be from melee or thrown.
2. I'd like to see the class built around INT and STR as the two primary stats instead of yet another DEX class.
3. There has to be some give and take for balance. If you want to be the #1 Nova damage class, there is a place for that, but you can't also be as generally good in melee and as tough as Champion Fighter.
4. I think your comparison should be a paladin when determining max Nova potential. I personally feel like the Paladins are too Nova for the games balance and have had multiple encounters ruined by the damage spike.

Suggestions to fit your theme but be less mechanically fiddly.
1. Give the Assassin a base power of using a bonus action to either place a shroud OR attack. This will give them the option of spreading out their attacks fighting normally, or retreating and sizing up an opponent for a few rounds then dashing in and doing a big damage strike.
2. Don't limit shrouds per day, limit the stack you can build up. This way you can do shroud style combat in every encounter.
3. As you gain access to stacking more shrouds, also gain abilities that affect enemies based on how many shrouds they have. For example may e a low level ability is advantage on stealth rolls versus shrouded enemies. This way your general sneak doesn't have to be super high to let you sneak up on opponents.
4. All of your subclasses powers should interact with shrouds and abilities to use on shrouded enemies.
5. Shroud extra damage should only be once per opponent per round...and should use the sneak attack progression as a base. I'd balance it arou d the idea of 2 shrouds being the same damage as a sneak attack. The balance comes in with you DOI g less with one round of prep but more with three. This sets you apart from the rogue.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

My input:

Conceptually, I think there is a place for your concept in the game. To answer how I feel it should differentiate itself from the rogue I would suggest the following.

1. No powered up ranged combat. You can still use bows but your Nova damage should be from melee or thrown.
2. I'd like to see the class built around INT and STR as the two primary stats instead of yet another DEX class.
3. There has to be some give and take for balance. If you want to be the #1 Nova damage class, there is a place for that, but you can't also be as generally good in melee and as tough as Champion Fighter.
4. I think your comparison should be a paladin when determining max Nova potential. I personally feel like the Paladins are too Nova for the games balance and have had multiple encounters ruined by the damage spike.

Suggestions to fit your theme but be less mechanically fiddly.
1. Give the Assassin a base power of using a bonus action to either place a shroud OR attack. This will give them the option of spreading out their attacks fighting normally, or retreating and sizing up an opponent for a few rounds then dashing in and doing a big damage strike.
2. Don't limit shrouds per day, limit the stack you can build up. This way you can do shroud style combat in every encounter.
3. As you gain access to stacking more shrouds, also gain abilities that affect enemies based on how many shrouds they have. For example may e a low level ability is advantage on stealth rolls versus shrouded enemies. This way your general sneak doesn't have to be super high to let you sneak up on opponents.
4. All of your subclasses powers should interact with shrouds and abilities to use on shrouded enemies.
5. Shroud extra damage should only be once per opponent per round...and should use the sneak attack progression as a base. I'd balance it arou d the idea of 2 shrouds being the same damage as a sneak attack. The balance comes in with you DOI g less with one round of prep but more with three. This sets you apart from the rogue.

Maybe something like:
Slayer strike. when you use the attack action, you can make 2 attacks as a bonus action afterward provided you are making them with a dagger.

Shrouds. You can use your bonus action action to lay a Shroud on a target within 60 ft. A creature can have up to 5 shrouds on it. Each additional Shroud add an extra effect. On your turn, when you hit a creature with a melee attack, you can revoke your Shrouds as a free action, adding 1dX psychic damage per shroud you revoked from the target to your damage roll.

number of shrouds	effect
1	Know current HP when hit
2	Speed Halved for 1 turn when hit.
3	Bleed: take X damage at the start of each turn until it takes an action to make a Wisdom(Medicine) check against Shroud DC (int based) to staunch the bleeding. Magical healing stop the bleeding automatically.
4	Line of Sight reduced to 10 ft.
5	Take +X damage per hit, once per turn.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I would present a list of options to the players and let them pick the ones to emate their character. Like picking invocations or maneuvers.

And you can't give two attacks as a bonus action, three attacks a round every round at 1st level is too much.