D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[Todd Roybark]

John Wick is a Rogue with Expertise in Athletics, the Tavern Brawler and Grappler feats and is getting Advantage and Sneak Attack on all attacks against grappled opponents, even with pencils!

Jason Bourne certainly seems to be getting more than one attack a round based off the movies.
Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin ( Oath of Retribution), levels all could work for Movie Bourne, to represent a military background. Some Monk levels also seem likely.

Murder is an evil act, period. One can try to argue that there are utilitarian benefits that arise from said Murder, but the act itself is evil. Now societies create ritualized conventions that supposedly allow murderous acts done under the auspices of said conventions to be exempt from being classified as Murder, it is called Justice, instead.

This perspective is admittedly Kantian, but as most Kantian formulations, it has the advantage of drawing distinct moral lines.

Note: Murder as referenced above is separate from consented euthanasia, and deaths resulting from self defense.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

In D&D there was a prestige class of a "good assasins" as holy slayers. Do you remember the videogames "Tenchu: shadow assassins", "the Saboteur" or "Death to Spies"? Riddick, the anti-hero played by Vin Diesel is other example of no-so-bad assassin.

The concept of assassin is closer to a secret agent than a soldier in the middle of a battlefield. His plan usually is to hit and dissapear before everybody notice what has happened.

My opinion is assassin as D&D class isn't a 100% stealth class but hybrid, maybe stealh + spellcaster but I imagine it as stealth as ki (power source) + martial maneuvers (school of the shadow hand). Do you remember the shadow assassin class from 4th Ed?

And in a D&D game the assassins can be interesting mini-bosses.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

In D&D there was a prestige class of a "good assasins" as holy slayers. Do you remember the videogames "Tenchu: shadow assassins", "the Saboteur" or "Death to Spies"? Riddick, the anti-hero played by Vin Diesel is other example of no-so-bad assassin.

The concept of assassin is closer to a secret agent than a soldier in the middle of a battlefield. His plan usually is to hit and dissapear before everybody notice what has happened.

My opinion is assassin as D&D class isn't a 100% stealth class but hybrid, maybe stealh + spellcaster but I imagine it as stealth as ki (power source) + martial maneuvers (school of the shadow hand). Do you remember the shadow assassin class from 4th Ed?

And in a D&D game the assassins can be interesting mini-bosses.

The assassin as movie spy, and the 4e shadow assassin, are two big inspirations for this. Spot on.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think we should look to the monk for balancing Shrouds as a limited resource. Damage per die should be close to monk die+about 3, so I still think 1d10 works there.
Then, other uses can be roughly balanced in comparison to things like step of the wind, patient defense, and the reaction attack of deflect missiles.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

1d10 is about even with 1 monk attack with a +3 Dex, but less reliable. Upside, it can be stacked up (still haven’t figured a cap on stacking shrouds), downside it takes time/actions/strategy to do that.

 

[FrogReaver]

What the heck is a shroud?

 

[Fenris-77]

What the heck is a shroud?

The working name for our bespoke assassin mechanic.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

yep. The ability could leave it up to the player which to use, but probably best to choose. I’d probably go with stealth.

Isn't this just a standard use of an ability check? Surely it would be the DM's call?

one thought I had was to have a choice of three tools, and get small but flavorful features with those tools as you level. Disguise Kit, Poisoner’s Kit, and Tinker Tools. If you pick tinker tools you get the ability to make a hidden blade or hand crossbow, a grapple-gun device, and improved spyglass.
This would be a bit like the warlocks pact boon, in that its a choice that is aside from your subclass.

I would recommend not.
I'm not seeing any theme of genius gadgeteer or expert craftsman in this class. No reason that someone of this class would have the ability to make high-tech or magical devices where others who could also use those tools could not.
Sounds like a subclass option.

I mean...it’s really weird to me that an assassin needs any explanation in order to imagine. But then, it’s also totally bonkers to me that people think the MCU Avengers assassins or Jason Bourne are fighters.

Its not weird that your concept of an assassin needs an explanation. - It is very different to many other people's concept of what an assassin is. I think that the image of the assassin in many people''s eyes is the consummate professional, who does the job with a minimum of fuss and risk, ensuring they escape to spend their fee. Terry Pratchett's Guild of Assassins for example.
The archetype that you seem to be using, of someone who fights their way through hordes of minions to openly confront their target - just isn't what the word conjures up to a lot of people. "Hitman" or "soldier" might be their words for that concept.
Any example that uses firearms it tricky because their deadliness varies by genre, and D&D is enough of a genre of its own that trying to shoehorn any particular non-D&D example into D&D terms is going to cause issues.

Yep. Some folks wanna make John Wick and James Bond a fighter, as if any concept that can fight is a Fighter. Nah.

Bond from the books is a definite Assassin. Film Bond depends a lot on who is currently playing him.
I think methods are probably the best indicator of class, since gunplay is hard to use as a measuring stick, and most films involve what is fairly obviously a high-level character mowing down low-level minions.
Single, telling attacks from stealth and then disappearing are more assassin-y. Planned and prepared situations to remove someone who is well-defended seems like the methodology of an assassin, even if the plot means something goes wrong and they don't pull it off flawlessly.
If the character is shooting or disabling enemies rapidly, with occasional bursts of almost-superhuman effort or resilience, that's a fighter. They may use stealth and cover, but if the people they kill are often face-to face with them - fighter.

Kalam Mekhar or Rallick Nom (Malazan Book of the Fallen), Caine (Acts of Caine), Durzo Blint (night Angel Trilogy). Waylander (David Gemmel) - are all examples of the type of fantasy assassin in question. Even Artemis Entreri is a reasonable example, evil as he might be.

Hence the issue with trying to visualise what you're trying to do. I'm only familiar with two of those examples. To me, Waylander is very much a Rogue. In 5e, Artemis Entreri is canonically a Fighter.

 

[Fenris-77]

We can disagree about Waylander I guess, but the scenes of him fighting face up don't really index rogue to me, as much as the stealth part might. As for Entreri, I was talking about fiction rather than an NPC from a particlular edition of the game, which isn't the same thing at all. I also can't help the fact that we aren't familiar with the same fictional examples, sorry, if I think up some other good examples I'll toss them out.

 

[FrogReaver]

The working name for our bespoke assassin mechanic.

I think the mechanic too narrowly shoehorns an Assassin into something necessarily magical instead of possibly mundane.