D&D 5E Assassins, Alignment, and Archetypes

[TheCosmicKid]

Look, man, I don’t really have much regard or patience for this sort of “your goal is bad and you should just be happy with the status quo” argument.

That is not my argument. I don't think your goal is bad; I think your goal is unclear. You have yet to give a straight answer to any of my questions about what you think gives your assassin a distinct identity. If you just put together everything that everyone referred to as an "assassin" in popular media can do, you're going to end up with a class that's either overpowered or diluted into weak sauce. You don't need to be happy with the status who, but you do need a direction to move in. It is my real, honest critique of your project here that, however clear you may think your goal is, you have not communicated it clearly.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That is not my argument. I don't think your goal is bad; I think your goal is unclear. You have yet to give a straight answer to any of my questions about what you think gives your assassin a distinct identity. If you just put together everything that everyone referred to as an "assassin" in popular media can do, you're going to end up with a class that's either overpowered or diluted into weak sauce. You don't need to be happy with the status who, but you do need a direction to move in. It is my real, honest critique of your project here that, however clear you may think your goal is, you have not communicated it clearly.

I disagree.

 

[Fenris-77]

I disagree.

And I concur with your disagreement.

DBW and I are pretty obviously talking about the same character, and also pretty obviously have more of less clear goals about what that looks like from a class mechanics standpoint. At least to the degree that I think it's odd to say that the goal hasn't been communicated. Maybe DBW and I are more familiar with the assassin archetype in question? I'm not sure.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

B

And I concur with your disagreement.

DBW and I are pretty obviously talking about the same character, and also pretty obviously have more of less clear goals about what that looks like from a class mechanics standpoint. At least to the degree that I think it's odd to say that the goal hasn't been communicated. Maybe DBW and I are more familiar with the assassin archetype in question? I'm not sure.

Back to that, I think the total per round damage probably works out if we make Bleed happen once per turn on a hit, d4 and slow on a failed save, gated by advantage. Maybe add Slow to it around level 5.

 

[Fenris-77]

B

Back to that, I think the total per round damage probably works out if we make Bleed happen once per turn on a hit, d4 and slow on a failed save, gated by advantage. Maybe add Slow to it around level 5.

I was thinking that having bleed happen more like 'on fire' made it a little more separate and different from other added damage mechanics. That doesn't mean we couldn't add slow at whatever level though, and adding a condition at 5 seems fine. Just to be sure, we are both talking about an ongoing condition for the bleed right? If it happens every turn until treated I thought it made sense to have it always happen at the same time.

Gated by advantage is fine. That should prevent it from getting out of hand.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

For social stealth, the idea is to allow the assassin to just...slide up to the folks at a fruit stand and examine some fruit or sit next to someone on a bench, or walk with a small crowd, and be hidden. Whether that should be deception or stealth, idk.

Your class is proficient with both aren't they?

I wonder if there is room in the base class for tools, by the way. Gadgets. It feels like all assassins have specialized tools to some degree, but idk where to put such a thing.

The subclass that uses magic could fluff their spells as items.

Or you could have a subclass that was 1/3rd Artificer perhaps, in the same way that Eldritch Knight and arcane Trickster are 1/3rd Wizard?

Overall though, are the gadgets or tools that the characters you are basing this class off usually something that they actually made themselves? Or are they usually supplied by their backers?
Given how high-level the characters that you appear to be referencing are in general, their gadgets could just be considered magic items like most high-level characters tend to accrue.

And I concur with your disagreement.

DBW and I are pretty obviously talking about the same character, and also pretty obviously have more of less clear goals about what that looks like from a class mechanics standpoint. At least to the degree that I think it's odd to say that the goal hasn't been communicated. Maybe DBW and I are more familiar with the assassin archetype in question? I'm not sure.

Perhaps some of the flavour text that you are intending to introduce the class and subclasses with is in order?

That way there is no confusion with existing film or literary examples that people may not be familiar with,( or be familiar with and have down as a different archetype.)
An introduction to the class like you'd find in the PHB detailing the class in action in a way that isn't going to make people say "That's just a Fighter/Rogue/Ranger/etc."

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Your class is proficient with both aren't they?

yep. The ability could leave it up to the player which to use, but probably best to choose. I’d probably go with stealth.

The subclass that uses magic could fluff their spells as items.

Or you could have a subclass that was 1/3rd Artificer perhaps, in the same way that Eldritch Knight and arcane Trickster are 1/3rd Wizard?

Overall though, are the gadgets or tools that the characters you are basing this class off usually something that they actually made themselves? Or are they usually supplied by their backers?
Given how high-level the characters that you appear to be referencing are in general, their gadgets could just be considered magic items like most high-level characters tend to accrue.

one thought I had was to have a choice of three tools, and get small but flavorful features with those tools as you level. Disguise Kit, Poisoner’s Kit, and Tinker Tools. If you pick tinker tools you get the ability to make a hidden blade or hand crossbow, a grapple-gun device, and improved spyglass.
This would be a bit like the warlocks pact boon, in that its a choice that is aside from your subclass.

Perhaps some of the flavour text that you are intending to introduce the class and subclasses with is in order?

That way there is no confusion with existing film or literary examples that people may not be familiar with,( or be familiar with and have down as a different archetype.)
An introduction to the class like you'd find in the PHB detailing the class in action in a way that isn't going to make people say "That's just a Fighter/Rogue/Ranger/etc."

I mean...it’s really weird to me that an assassin needs any explanation in order to imagine. But then, it’s also totally bonkers to me that people think the MCU Avengers assassins or Jason Bourne are fighters.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yep. Some folks wanna make John Wick and James Bond a fighter, as if any concept that can fight is a Fighter. Nah.

It nearly always happens with threads about the assassin. Even in 4e, if it wasn’t a thread about optimisation, all these same arguments come out.

So alternatively - are you saying that if any concept that can do more than fight then by necessity it cannot be a fighter?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So alternatively - are you saying that if any concept that can do more than fight then by necessity it cannot be a fighter?

No, and nothing I said suggested as much, in any way.

 

[FrogReaver]

No, and nothing I said suggested as much, in any way.

I beg to differ.