D&D 5E Attack cantrips are a waste of the DM's time

[Kraydak]

While I am definitely a fan of some spells using attack rolls, I defintely do not want to see a return of NADs, or even Fort-Ref-Will saves. I still really like the idea of a save for each stat:

STR save - resists - monster grapple attacks, hazards like falling boulders
DEX save - resists - any spell or hazard where you dodge out of the way
CON save - resists - any spell or hazard that attacks the body or life force
INT save - resists - illusions and any hazard where a keen intellect would help you
WIS save - resists - mental attacks, fear, or any other effect that does not clearly fit into any other save
CHA save - resists - charm effects, any effect that overcomes your personality

Having save categories for each stat runs into the problem that the attacker usually only needs to pump one stat, while the defender needs to pump multiple stats. This isn't catastrophic of course: you just have to remember to balance the pumped attacker against a minimal stat defender (which is the standard case). On the other hand, in Next's current design that removes ALL save scaling (such as it is). Which is another was of saying that Next's saving throw system is a disaster in the making. The good new is that people have started to really notice and discuss the problem since about the last playtest packet.

 

[Weather Report]

I would like Dex mod dropped from Initiative rolls, and as others have said, the Saving Throws spread out more, not just Dex, Con, Wis (I'll do it myself if they don't get on the ball).

And yes, MM mentioned ray/lance, etc, spells returning to targeting AC (player rolls), like the 1st kick-ass packet.

 

[Wulfgar76]

Having save categories for each stat runs into the problem that the attacker usually only needs to pump one stat, while the defender needs to pump multiple stats. This isn't catastrophic of course: you just have to remember to balance the pumped attacker against a minimal stat defender (which is the standard case).

Well not all save categories are equally represented. Dexterity saves are going to be very common, while Intelligence saves are going to be pretty infrequent. Nobody is going to feel pressure to pump Int or Cha because they might have to make those saves once in a blue moon.

 

[Sunseeker]

Having save categories for each stat runs into the problem that the attacker usually only needs to pump one stat, while the defender needs to pump multiple stats. This isn't catastrophic of course: you just have to remember to balance the pumped attacker against a minimal stat defender (which is the standard case). On the other hand, in Next's current design that removes ALL save scaling (such as it is). Which is another was of saying that Next's saving throw system is a disaster in the making. The good new is that people have started to really notice and discuss the problem since about the last playtest packet.

Sure, but that's partly the nature of the game, but it's also an important aspect of the DM playing with the party or the DM playing against the party. A DM who plays against the party will naturally run a wide array of creatures that force the players to dump points into multiple defenses. A DM who plays WITH the party will likely provide diverse challenges, but play to the character's strengths and not against their weaknesses.

 

[Bluenose]

Sure, but that's partly the nature of the game, but it's also an important aspect of the DM playing with the party or the DM playing against the party. A DM who plays against the party will naturally run a wide array of creatures that force the players to dump points into multiple defenses. A DM who plays WITH the party will likely provide diverse challenges, but play to the character's strengths and not against their weaknesses.

Except that different classes will favour different stats, so even if you play to one character's strengths it's nearly certain that will be a different character's weakness. The dragon isn't going to breathe fire just at the Rogue, it's going to target the Dex 8 Cleric as well.

Besides, when it comes to Wizards, even if they target a human's best save by 20th level that's a 70% failure rate on saving throws. That's simply not what I want to see.

 

[adembroski]

They amount to a built-in crossbow. If you consider that overpowered, I'd hate to see what you think of fighter attack bonuses and maneuvers.

Also, sneering about how someone else's playstyle is "entitled" is itself the embodiment of entitlement--you seem to think yours is the One True Way, when no such thing exists.

Player entitlement is a thing, even if it's what you prefer as a playstyle. You're welcome to throw out everything that restricts players in your game if you like, but I doubt many other people want to play that game, even if they think they do upon hearing about it. If you want your game to be masturbatory fanfic, go for it, I don't care, but if you think that's going to compete with other games on the market, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

As far as built in crossbow... last I checked, crossbows required a move eq. action to reload and that provoked an attack of opportunity. These cantrips effectively make wizards and clerics the dominant missile wielders in the game at the initial levels.

You honestly believe that, tactically speaking, at 1st level, when an archer is needed, the game should be built in such a way as the wizard is chosen rather than the ranger?

Mod Note: Let's keep it civil and family-friendly, please. -Umbran

 

[Blackwarder]

I have an idea, lets have a dedicated saving throw against Petrification & Paralysis (str), a saving throw against Poison & Death (Con), a saving throw against Blast & Breath attacks (Dex), one against Staffs & Wands (Wis) and a last one against Spells (Wis)... I'm just saying...

Warder

 

[Sadrik]

While I am definitely a fan of some spells using attack rolls, I defintely do not want to see a return of NADs, or even Fort-Ref-Will saves. I still really like the idea of a save for each stat:

STR save - resists - monster grapple attacks, hazards like falling boulders
DEX save - resists - any spell or hazard where you dodge out of the way
CON save - resists - any spell or hazard that attacks the body or life force
INT save - resists - illusions and any hazard where a keen intellect would help you
WIS save - resists - mental attacks, fear, or any other effect that does not clearly fit into any other save
CHA save - resists - charm effects, any effect that overcomes your personality

STR also deals with web spell, and other such movement reducing effects.

DEX deals with two types of effects, those that you get hit by and then you try and reduce the damage "by some means" to half damage. It also represents effects where you either fall in or you do not. This has always been tricky on in my book because you also often have skills that overlap in the same area (tumble, athletics, acrobatics or whatever). You also have an AC which also works in this areas too. Reduce damage from attacks by making it harder to penetrate your armor. So a lot of disparate elements that are in the same area mechanically or conceptually.

CON saves are easily separated out. Basically fortitude or PPDM save from days yonder.

INT there are currently no spells that target INT, Mind flayers mind blast goes against INT and that is it.

WIS is what you say, a catchall for anything that does not fit into CHA, and since there is only one effect that targets INT, in the current game, it is basically not a save.

CHA it peeled off some compulsion effects (not all though) from WIS.


Ok so how do I think it should be rectified?
STR seems fine, they could remove the contested roll and institute a STR save instead for grapple and various maneuvers. This would make it very important.

DEX AC should work to reduce damage from fireball and other damage effects. Gorgoroth called this one out in the other thread and it really made sense to me. Fighters should be able to defend themselves against damage with their armor. Then there is the dodge aspect and if skills that thematically should help you dodge should be there to help. Well it depends on the skill system. Lets assume that the DM chooses not use a skill system for the moment (to make it easy). Yes, this is where DEX should be to dodge or not fall in, where not dodging would cause the effect as opposed to not saving means you take a little more damage.

INT They have made a non-save, a dump stat when considering saves. I dont like that personally. For perception they have made it INT or WIS check to notice something in the bestiary, that has not been trickled into the spell section yet. I also like the old disbelieve to be INT based and not WIS based.

WIS ok so here is where I would like to see some DEX peeled off and placed here, make it perception and awareness. Surprise can be a WIS save, heck initiative could be a WIS check, orient yourself to the battle faster.

CHA Here is where you resist the brunt of mental attacks. Compulsions, fear, phantasms, mind blast, mid control and all the host of other attacks on the mind.

One other point about magic items. Since saves are more expansive. I am not sure that the protection and resistance magic item qualities should remain the same. I can see protection for physical saves, and resistance for mental saves. Physical could also include AC. So, Protection would give you +X to STR, DEX, and CON saves and AC, while Resistance would give you +X to INT, WIS, and CHA saves.

 

[Sunseeker]

Except that different classes will favour different stats, so even if you play to one character's strengths it's nearly certain that will be a different character's weakness. The dragon isn't going to breathe fire just at the Rogue, it's going to target the Dex 8 Cleric as well.

Besides, when it comes to Wizards, even if they target a human's best save by 20th level that's a 70% failure rate on saving throws. That's simply not what I want to see.

Sure, sometimes we'll fight the dragon where the rogue can dodge every breath of fire. Sometimes we'll fight the necromancer against whom the fighter will always save on fort checks. This happens.

 

[Hussar]

Player entitlement is a thing, even if it's what you prefer as a playstyle. You're welcome to throw out everything that restricts players in your game if you like, but I doubt many other people want to play that game, even if they think they do upon hearing about it. If you want your game to be masturbatory fanfic, go for it, I don't care, but if you think that's going to compete with other games on the market, I'm afraid you're mistaken.

As far as built in crossbow... last I checked, crossbows required a move eq. action to reload and that provoked an attack of opportunity. These cantrips effectively make wizards and clerics the dominant missile wielders in the game at the initial levels.

You honestly believe that, tactically speaking, at 1st level, when an archer is needed, the game should be built in such a way as the wizard is chosen rather than the ranger?

Considering the ranger will be using a bow, I think the ranger is going to get chosen more often than not.

And choosing to characterize someone's differing opinion as "masturbatory fanfic" isn't likely going to make your point very well.