D&D 5E Balancing Full Casters with Non-Casters

[mikebr99]

Damage spells are not really going to out shine the dedicated martial characters... and the spells that may are all concentration. So the Wizard really has to decide to either buff his allies or debuff the enemies with his one concentration use for most of a combat.

Once a caster "announces" himself... then he becomes THE target... everyone fears... or at least respects magic enough to get rid of it's user at the earliest opportunity!

And this is my favourite quote from 4e: Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating.  Actually, devastating is too light a word.  Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome. -AirPower25

I would argue that 5e aren't like that anymore... YMMV


Mike

 

[fobia]

I agree with cthulu42 here.

I think there are a lot of ways to tackle this problem and I don't think that longer or more encounters are the only solution. It certainly makes a difference, but to drain a caster of his spells means that the encounters have to be designed around that desire and that can make it boring.
And higher level spells are not as crazy as people make them seem here. At least not until lvl 15+. And even then, how many of them can you learn and prepare in a meaningful way? Not that many in my experience.

To me it sounds like the non-caster class players feel that they don't have their big moment to shine. But that is imho not a problem of martial or magical classes, but of the campaign or maybe even their style of play?
Even a 20th level full caster can not be the thief, face, damage dealer, tank, strategist and healer at once.
Even if the fun in your game tends to rely more heavily on the mechanical aspects of combat, there are a lot of enemies or effects (anti-magic shenanigans) that make wizards vulnerable and give the martial classes an option to shine and save their reality bender's behind.
Skill checks/challenges that a wizard can't resolve through a spell are also something that lets players see the merit of their classes. A lot of people forget how important/fun to play out skills like athletics or acrobatics can be.
And there are ways mundane people can bend reality in DnD. Artifacts, rituals, the blessing/curse of a deity or similar can make a figher as crazy as any caster. The sword of thermonuclear explosion +2 is way less fun than the old dagger that can carve out part of the worlds or open portals or whatever comes to your mind.

 

[Rod Staffwand]

Absolutely 100% give higher level characters more challenges to overcome. All the time. Period. Full stop.

For encounters, opt for lots of easy to medium encounters that force the players to use up resources. To this add obstacles. Lots of obstacles. Locked doors. Wide chasms. Dense, thorny thickets. Don't give them easy paths or easy solutions. That's what their abilities are for at this level. Put them in environments that inflict continuous damage or prevent rest or force saves occasionally to prevent them from being weakened or cursed or whatever. High-level play should be challenging. The players should be experienced with their characters and the system and those characters have a wealth of abilities and synergies to draw on. It's time to respond in kind with situations that can truly push them.

In these types of scenarios, the greater defenses of the fighter types and the higher skill checks of the rogue types fare well in comparison to the spellslingers.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

...I have always felt like the D&D classes were playing in two different games; medieval combat movie and magic-users warp reality. ...

Or maybe you play one game where both exist together? Isn't magic supposed to warp reality? By it's very nature, magic is not a mundane force on call like some subscription service, meekly circumscribing well-heeled limits. It's the stuff of creation, a dangerous force harnessed tenuously by those who would dare. Treating spells like a collection of smart-phone apps in your game is a grave misservice to the heart and soul of D&D.

5e has gone to great lengths to balance casters with other classes. I'd trust to that and just run the game to see how it goes before declaring an emergency.

 

[steeldragons]

Ahhh, "How to 'balance' casters vs. non-casters?" The 64,000 gp question.

There are a few threads to pull with this...

#1. As in all things the "B"-word, what do you mean when you say "balance?" Define the kind of "Balance" you mean.

Do your players mean DPR? I think most acknowledge 5e's actually fairly carefully balanced -in the sense of everyone being reasonably even/fair- across all classes for dpr.

Is it flavor? You're never going to change that. One set of classes using magic -which does things that just can't happen in real life [for the most part]. By definition, from "Magic Missile" and "Detect Magic" on up, these classes are "reality bending"...because, "Hi, Magic." One set of [very very small in 5e] classes does not use magic/spells. These two sets will never, anywhere, in any way, "feel" comparable. One group is making balls of fire burst into existence in their hands, causing wounds to close and bones to knit, *POOFing* enemies to other dimensions[!]. One set is swinging their swords and picking their locks.

Other than a certain iteration's creative direction of going full-on "comic book superhero/physically impossible" for stuff for the non-magic users, you're not even going to close that flavor gap...but there will still be a gap. One group of classes can do, eventually, literally anything. One group is bound by [more or less] the physical laws of the material world (so even that half-genie guy with the fire for hair can't just leap across a 30' chasm under their own muscle ability). You -or anyone- are not going to be able to make those two groups "feel" the same...other than, as you note, in a game that simply doesn't include any magic/spell use...or, I suppose, conversely you could also close it by simply making EVERYone a magic-user (which seems the path in the dark forest that 5e decided to go most of the way down).

So, first step, what's this "Balance" your players are concerned over? What does it look like to them? What does it look like to you/the DM? Are those compatible or competing definitions?

#2. Once you know that, the question becomes, "What will be fun, as DM, for you to implement?"

I think you've covered your options, there. Choice A: "Rein in" the casters (which hardly seems fair to the caster players). or Choice B: "Beef up" the non-casters' options/character choices (which is probably the powergamey kind of stuff that admitted 4e-nostalgic non-caster players are looking for).

I might offer an option C: a Combination of the two that doesn't substantially alter much of either, but brings them closer. This, naturally is the least attractive option as it presents the most work for you [the DM] and doesn't really result in either side being fully happy. But that's what compromise is.

2A: Reining in the Casters: Something I've toyed with in the generation of my own game system is -as I believe others have mentioned- extending powerful spells (for me/my tastes, I'd say over 3rd level) casting times.

The simplest I've come up with, though I can't speak to its efficacy in actual play, is adding 1 round of casting time for each spell level above 3rd. So a 4th level spell requires 2 full rounds to cast (taking effect at the end of the second round). 5th level spell needs 3 rounds, and so on.

My goal wasn't so much to deter uber-powered casters, but to promote the Group/cooperative elements of play. "Keep the ogres off me. I'll open us a portal to escape." But would certainly assist your goal if any significant (4th or 5th+ level) spell requires multiple rounds to cast...and has the bonus carry on effect of giving the non-casters something meaningful [or so it should feel, one would hope] to do while the casters are bending reality.

2B: Beefing up the Non-casters: the usual go-to answer to this query..."I'll give the fighters more STUFF they can do!" From BECM on, more levels for Fighters meant more "things" they could do...that were usually very situational and next to worthless. But they were in there! More levels for Thieves meant more skills/abilities and higher success rates of everything.

Then, of course, there were the other "out of combat" elements of the earlier editions of the game, including forming strongholds (or "hideouts" for thieves) and attracting followers/trainees of your class. The latter weren't exclusive to non-casters, though they certainly had more benefit (and I think larger numbers of low-level classed followers) than the casters.

What this all ends up boiling down (or snowballing up) to is "adding complexity"...to the non-caster classes and the overall functioning of the game itself. That's not inherently, of course, a bad thing. Some people like complexity. Some people want as much complexity [i.e. "player choices"] for their non-caster as the casters receive.

It is, however, completely unrealistic. Casters have, literally, dozens of choices (spells to choose, spells to change/prep each day, etc...) at practically every level of their experience and very day of play. Non-casters will simply not be able to compete with that...without using 2A to virtually nullify casters to as few options as the non-casters get. Then, yes, everyone's "balanced" in terms of fairness. Everyone has "the same." That's fair/"balanced," right? But it just makes casters completely void of their flavor.

I do think, and have done in my system generation, giving a few more options [class features] to non-casters doesn't hurt anybody. I throw in a little more "front-loaded" at lower levels than casters get. I throw in features at levels where the casters don't receive any (because they're still getting their spells). And a few more interspersed through higher levels when caster classes simply don't get any (because they're continuing to pile up their magic arsenal).

All in all, the numbers of "features" casters to noncasters are not the same. For individual leveled features, the noncasters seem to have a solid bunch more. But when you look at the number of spells that can be cast in a day, the casters still far outpace non's for possible meaningful action beyond "swing sword/use thieves' tools."

There really is, I don't think, no satisfying way to "balance" noncasters with casters and maintain the feeling of each: either the magic-users become completely useless/one-trick ponies ("nerfed" I believe is the term kids are using these days) or the non-magic types become immersion-breaking super-powered mutants.

Careful application of a bit of A and a bit of B is your best bet, I'd say.

I know that is probably...unsatisfying, but I don't really know what else to tell you.

Hearing what you decide/how you go about it..and the results will be appreciated. Good luck.

 

[Phion]

The balance now is longer fights (more rounds, not more IRL time) and more fights per day. Fighters keep on fighting. Casters run out of spells. If you run few or short combats, casters win.

The problem with this logic is that it does not include downtime activities/ preparation where a few spells will be sufficient before they are recharged. Also a experienced player will find ways to win without fighting to begin with (Wall of force has stopped so many combats taking place), a traditionalist players solution to this point will be not to reward so much XP whilst other players will jump on their back saying that purely combat focused xp/milestones encourages murder hobos.

My fix would be slower regeneration for spells regained for spell casters regardless of a full rest. Otherwise it would be a very slight nerf on spells (or the removal of certain spells altogether) and a ever so slight boost to martial classes (not including paladin and probably not monk either).

 

[GameOgre]

If there is a issue at my table about class balance with casters verse non-casters it's that the full casters seem underwhelming. The high level game see's full casters still being powerful and useful but limited. The number of high level spells. the relatively easy to beat saves and the auto-save ability of the most powerful monsters in the form of legendary actions put a mighty dampener on my full caster players enthusiasm.

I would still argue that they are fun and can do amazing things and are very useful to have around but Overpowered is not the word that leaps to mind.

At times they can indeed seem that way but no more than any other class. ANY of the high characters can seem overpowered at one point or another with the right circumstances.

 

[Aldarc]

As people are giving you advice on how to 5E, I will offer an alternative...

Utility was the main complaint with control/damage being in far second. Their issue was that a well chosen spell list on a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, or druid could make most of the other classes feel unnecessary to the adventure often.

'Immersion' was a complaint too, but I suggested moving to a spelljammer/planescape-like or eberron style game world to combat that.

There's always Savage Worlds for that. I hear that SW is great for running Eberron. A number of people claim that SW's scope of character advancement emulates the equivalent of power levels of 2 to 10 in D&D.

 

[77IM]

Give the non-casters really nifty magic items.

 

[dco]

The last time I played one spellcaster up to lvl 14-15, we had another one with divine magic and 2 martial classes, this was my experience:
- Roleplaying: Like any other class.
- Skills: 4, here the rogue and bard shine.
- Combat (1 or 2 encounters): You go nova, but like the fighter with 6 attacks, the Paladin with smites, the ranger empties the quiver, etc.
- Combat (dungeon): You'll use a lot your cantrips and defensive spells.

Some handicaps:
- Concentration: Only one spell.
- Damage: Your damage is not going to be comparable to martial classes, you can affect more people with areas but then you need a good initiative.
- Counterspells: Sometimes wizards are nullified between them.
- Resistances, saves and legendary saves: Oh, you saved your spells using cantrips and the big boss has legendary saves, perhaps at the third turn when the fight is nearly ended you can do something remotely interesting.