D&D (2024) Barbarian (Playtest 7)

[mellored]

But at low-mid levels, where the game is mostly played, rage is just too integral to the class to be wasting it on a skill check.

That's the same thing a casters have to do. Do I use my slot on owls wisdom, or save it for a fight?

Sure, at higher level, they can afford it. But at low level when my slots are tight?

I don't have any issues with the barbarians having utility rages.

 

[Amrûnril]

It is only as nonsensical as you force it to be. By drawing on primal power they are drawing on the ideas of animals. Tracking = stalking prey, Finding food and water, ect.

The ability to draw on the ideas of animals is based on physical strength? Regardless, I think this is far too specific a narrative to be pushed on an entire class.

I mean, a wizard getting a bonus to all Intelligence skills would be equally narrow by this definition. Yes, all Barbarians have greater than average skill in these five things. The only one that is a little weird is acrobatics, but it isn't even that strange as having good balance isn't a bad thing for even the biggest of brutes. Everything else flows naturally together.

A wizard should be able to apply their intelligence modifier to ability checks that the DM rules are based on intelligence, just as any other character can. They can add proficiency and other bonuses to the specific skills that fit their background and character concept. They don't, and shouldn't, have a class-based bonus to a predetermined set of skills.

That character concept is perfectly fine? The only time when this ability prevents things is when you want Dex or Wis to be your highest stats, and um... Rage? Reckless Attack? Both of these incredibly strongly force Barbarians to focus on Strength over Dex. Adn the Barbarian with wisdom as their highest stat is... not a concept that works. You'd be a melee combatant with no skill in melee weapons.

A barbarian who prioritizes DEX or CON over STR is functional but not optimal in combat. There's no reason they should also be worse at skills like perception. (As for WIS as a primary score, I recognize that concept being viable is purely aspirational).

 

[Clint_L]

That's the same thing a casters have to do. Do I use my slot on owls wisdom, or save it for a fight?

Sure, at higher level, they can afford it. But at low level when my slots are tight?

I don't have any issues with the barbarians having utility rages.

Casters have a lot more spell slots than barbarians do rages, and one rage is worth more to a barbarian than any single spell slot. It's the entire chassis of the class.

I'm arguing that with the current design, the opportunity cost of primal awareness is going to prevent it from seeing much use, but I'll guess we'll see what most play testers find. I know that if I have 2-3 rages available, it better be an incredibly important check for me to waste a rage on it. Let the rogue handle it.

If the goal is to give barbarians more to do outside of combat, don't force them to potentially cripple themselves in combat to do it. Spending a rage is a LOT more consequential than spending a second wind or a spell slot. It's bad design.

 

[mellored]

Casters have a lot more spell slots than barbarians do rages, and one rage is worth more to a barbarian than any single spell slot. It's the entire chassis of the class.

At higher levels, sure.

At level 3, casting enhanced ability is going to be just as painful.

 

[ChameleonX]

When I first heard of the World Tree Barbarian, I was hoping it was more like the 4e Warden. However, I was disappointed. The features are fine, I guess, I was just expecting something a bit more... substantial.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's the same thing a casters have to do. Do I use my slot on owls wisdom, or save it for a fight?

Sure, at higher level, they can afford it. But at low level when my slots are tight?

I don't have any issues with the barbarians having utility rages.

Except many caster utility spells are rituals for exactly this reason....

 

[mellored]

Except many caster utility spells are rituals for exactly this reason....

Are you suggesting Barbarians can rage as a ritual?

 

[Neonchameleon]

Are you suggesting Barbarians can rage as a ritual?

No. He's suggesting that casters don't have to choose combat or second rate utility.

 

[mellored]

No. He's suggesting that casters don't have to choose combat or second rate utility.

Still kinda want to have barbarians do a ritual to get mad...

 

[Chaosmancer]

The ability to draw on the ideas of animals is based on physical strength? Regardless, I think this is far too specific a narrative to be pushed on an entire class.

Who said you had to draw on animals? I said "primal" not "animalistic"

The Barbarian of the World Tree draws upon the World Tree. The Zealot pulls upon the Divine. ect. And as for it being strength... why not? Hundreds of cultures around the world gave their strongest warriors mystical powers based on their strength in battle. There is nothing inherently wrong with the concept.

A wizard should be able to apply their intelligence modifier to ability checks that the DM rules are based on intelligence, just as any other character can. They can add proficiency and other bonuses to the specific skills that fit their background and character concept. They don't, and shouldn't, have a class-based bonus to a predetermined set of skills.

And how much of your determination of this is based solely on the fact that there is only a single "magic" skill, and it is based in intelligence?

You are getting hung up on "but strength is only muscles" and not looking at the actual narrative at play here. Which is the barbarian entering a state of heightened focus and physical ability while drawing on the primal source of their rage. Remember, it isn't JUST these skills, but also Athletics, the only strength based skill.

A barbarian who prioritizes DEX or CON over STR is functional but not optimal in combat. There's no reason they should also be worse at skills like perception. (As for WIS as a primary score, I recognize that concept being viable is purely aspirational).

This is really a silly argument. Because let us look at the 2014 Barbarian. Is a Dex-bard worse at perception than a Str-Barb? No. They are just better at dex skills, of which the barbarian really only wants one in general. The entire reason the Dex-barb exists is because people wanted stealthy barbarians.

Now, Dex-Barbs aren't encouraged.... because you can have stealthy barbarians without limiting your combat stats. And Con barbs are still equally viable.

But the crazy thing? Unless you were a Barbarian who was playing 16 Con, 16 Dex, 13 Str and 12 Wisdom.... Every other barbarian EVEN DEX BARBARIANS are likely better at perception than they were before. Because even with that 16 Con, 16 Dex, 13 Str, 12 wis build that forsakes all of their ability to use rage and reckless attack... they will still be able to roll perception with advantage. And any Con Barbarian that went 18 Con, 16 Str... is still doing fine.

No build is actually being made weaker here, it is just that the normal barbarian is getting better in a way that they really desperately needed.