D&D (2024) Bard Playtest discussion

[Chaosmancer]

Unless there's actual physical damage, like poison, in which case it heals that too. Thinking about it differently doesn't change the rules.

Okay, let's play this out for a second.

Player: "I've been stabbed!"
Bard: "Don't worry, I will strum on my lyre to call upon the forces of creation and heal your wounds." (rolls a 1d4+cha mod) "You heal 6 points."

Player: "I've been stabbed!"
Bard: "Don't worry, I will strum on my lyre to call upon the forces of creation and heal your wounds." (rolls a 1d6) "You heal 6 points."

Notice how these are identical? That's because Healing Word is a Verbal only spell. the difference isn't in the lore, it is in the resource and timing. Now, if people want it to be that Bardic Inspiration is purely non-magical, that's fine. If they want it to be a mix of magical and non-magical, that's fine. If they want it to be purely magical, that's fine.

Because the entire POINT of a bard is that they are using music and words and performance to do magic. "There is magic in a song, the laugh of a child, and the pounding of feet dancing around the fire" is the entire point of the style of magic bard's use. Why would we need to make this another pointless discussion about meat points? If you don't want non-magical healing through the use of words and song, then say that bardic inspiration is magical words and song, it fits just as easily.

 

[Mistwell]

I am fine with this version of the Bard, except the Lore bard. I am rather not fine with the Lore bard.

Their star ability was additional magical secrets. The replacement in this current version is nothing close to the meaning of that ability. Nothing left in this version says "Lore" focused to me like that missing ability.

I think they should put it back, or replace it with something as interesting and lore-based as that ability. Because as written, I can't think of why I'd ever choose this subclass again.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Poison and bludgeoning/piercing/slashing don't have to damage your body every time you take those damage types and not every hit is an actual physical hit on your person. The PHB clearly states that hit points are a combination of physical resilience, agility, luck, will to live, and other factors. Hit points in 5e are more of a pool of resources you have to expend to avoid falling unconscious in battle, not a source of meat points like in video games. So healing isn't just restoring physical damage, it also can affect your agility, luck, will to live, and the other factors that makeup hit points.

If you're not taking physical damage, then why does damage type matter? And if you are, even in part, then healing heals that part, since there's no differentiation in the types of healing in so far as what they do (just how much).

 

[Weiley31]

"Oh spirit of gaping chest wounds, in the name of Pelor I rebuke you!"

"Mighty Pelor, keep the grim spectre of death away from Jeff the Bleeding this day!"

Bard proceeds to Breakdance Jeff's bloody wounds away.

 

[Weiley31]

Personally, I think Bard's should be getting necromancy spells. Bestow Curse and Animate Dead are pretty mythically bardic abilities, But I can see why that wasn't something that they wanted to do.

The Dirge Singer agrees with you.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am fine with this version of the Bard, except the Lore bard. I am rather not fine with the Lore bard.

Their star ability was additional magical secrets. The replacement in this current version is nothing close to the meaning of that ability. Nothing left in this version says "Lore" focused to me like that missing ability.

I think they should put it back, or replace it with something as interesting and lore-based as that ability. Because as written, I can't think of why I'd ever choose this subclass again.

So you think the Lore bard should have access to all three lists of spells, while other bards only get access to two?

Because Lore Bards are still getting additional magical secrets, it is just that EVERY bard is getting additional magical secrets.

As for why you might use the Lore Bard, does rolling every single use of bardic inspiration, bardic healing, and cutting words with advantage not sound like a pretty good ability? It is hard to say if that is "lore-based" or not, because that depends on how it is flavored, but it is a pretty decent ability to have.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The issue I brought up was real enough, why do you have to dismiss it like I'm screaming at the clouds? Also, shockingly, it is possible to have more than one issue with something. They aren't limited in number or something.

I'm dismissing it because it's an obscure corner-case issue which would impact a tiny number of users of the Bard class with one specific subclass in a very rare situation, whereas this issue would affect a significant number.

In the real world, it's literally my job to make assessments like this. And it's important to make assessments like this. You're exactly like the user who can create this specific, reproducible error, but where it does not meaningfully impact his day-to-day workflow, just minorly annoys him once every few days, who think that's a major problem deserving of serious attention. It ain't. Major problems are major problems, not corner-case issues. Even if that issue is never fixed, it's not a big deal. Most players will just move on with their lives and never care about it.

Whereas the significantly lower amount of Inspiration at lower levels will impact all Bard players.

 

[Haplo781]

I'm dismissing it because it's an obscure corner-case issue which would impact a tiny number of users of the Bard class with one specific subclass in a very rare situation, whereas this issue would affect a significant number.

In the real world, it's literally my job to make assessments like this. And it's important to make assessments like this. You're exactly like the user who can create this specific, reproducible error, but where it does not meaningfully impact his day-to-day workflow, just minorly annoys him once every few days, who think that's a major problem deserving of serious attention. It ain't. Major problems are major problems, not corner-case issues. Even if that issue is never fixed, it's not a big deal. Most players will just move on with their lives and never care about it.

Whereas the significantly lower amount of Inspiration at lower levels will impact all Bard players.

Yep.

Getting your inspiration cut by 33-50% until level 12 (which is aspirational for most tables) is a huge nerf that leads to "too good to use" syndrome.

Having to make difficult choices about action economy is a minor issue that comes with an upside (being able to save your inspiration for when you know it's needed.)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Their star ability was additional magical secrets. The replacement in this current version is nothing close to the meaning of that ability. Nothing left in this version says "Lore" focused to me like that missing ability.

This is a silly position.

Lore means knowledge, and this Bard gets more mandatory knowledge than the previous iteration of the Lore Bard, thanks to the fixed skills.

It also gets more Magical Secrets than the previous Lore Bard, because of the changes to Magical Secrets. In 5E, a Lore Bards know 3 spells that are "magical secrets", and they can very rarely be changed (only on level up and if using Tasha's, IIRC, something close to that). In 1D&D, a Lore Bard (and indeed all Bards), knows 4 spells that are "magical secrets", AND can change them every day!

It's a huge increase in ability from a current Lore Bard. You seem to be confused and think it's a decrease? It's a massive upgrade. Gigantic.

What you seem to be demanding is the upgrade is even more gigantic? Yes? Is that right? You want to go from 3 basically fixed spells to 6 change-every-day spells? 4 change-every-day isn't good enough?

If you were making an argument that Magical Secrets is delayed too late in a Bard's career (i.e. level 11) because of this, you'd be in a much better position, but you aren't.

Lore Bards get some extremely strong abilities, as @Chaosmancer has outlined. It those aren't good enough for you to consider the subclass, well, that's damn silly. We can only compare the 1D&D Lore Bard to 5E subclasses, but right now? It's still the #1 subclass for a Bard in terms of pure mechanic "oomph". Might that change? Sure. It might. Valor Bards might stop being meh and Blades might stop being absolutely terrible, for example. But there's no reason to believe that. In fact, unless they get some further buffs, Blades are going to be even further behind with the 1D&D Bard layout.

 

[Haplo781]

This is a silly position.

Lore means knowledge, and this Bard gets more mandatory knowledge than the previous iteration of the Lore Bard, thanks to the fixed skills.

It also gets more Magical Secrets than the previous Lore Bard, because of the changes to Magical Secrets. In 5E, a Lore Bards know 3 spells that are "magical secrets", and they can very rarely be changed (only on level up and if using Tasha's, IIRC, something close to that). In 1D&D, a Lore Bard (and indeed all Bards), knows 4 spells that are "magical secrets", AND can change them every day!

It's a huge increase in ability from a current Lore Bard. You seem to be confused and think it's a decrease? It's a massive upgrade. Gigantic.

What you seem to be demanding is the upgrade is even more gigantic? Yes? Is that right? You want to go from 3 basically fixed spells to 6 change-every-day spells? 4 change-every-day isn't good enough?

If you were making an argument that Magical Secrets is delayed too late in a Bard's career (i.e. level 11) because of this, you'd be in a much better position, but you aren't.

Lore Bards get some extremely strong abilities, as @Chaosmancer has outlined. It those aren't good enough for you to consider the subclass, well, that's damn silly. We can only compare the 1D&D Lore Bard to 5E subclasses, but right now? It's still the #1 subclass for a Bard in terms of pure mechanic "oomph". Might that change? Sure. It might. Valor Bards might stop being meh and Blades might stop being absolutely terrible, for example. But there's no reason to believe that. In fact, unless they get some further buffs, Blades are going to be even further behind with the 1D&D Bard layout.

Valor Bard could literally fold in the entirety of Sword Bard and still not be OP.