D&D (2024) Bard Playtest discussion

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I don't have an issue with the white mage archetype (but this doesn't really get you there unless school specialties give you cross list access to spells). I just find it odd that this completely untethers the game term from the meaning of the word.

"Oh spirit of gaping chest wounds, in the name of Pelor I rebuke you!"

"Mighty Pelor, keep the grim spectre of death away from Jeff the Bleeding this day!"

 

[Yaarel]

You can still always use a component pouch... which you should still probably have even if you have a focus. Being able to just have "me" to ignore most material components kinda defeats the purpose of them.

The consideration is flavor.

A Bard wields magic by voice − whether song, command, praise or satire.

The Bard never uses a component pouch because to do so would be WRONG.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Probably the Skald/Swords-type bards will get Rapier (actually, probably all Martial Weapons, which could be neat). Short Swords will have to do for the rest. (Simple weapons now!)

Yeah thinking about it we can just fluff a short sword as a shorter rapier.

Notice that Bards don't have any healing spells at level one? They have to use Bardic Inspiration for it.

Did not notice, interesting! That kind of perversely works because it means the what, two Inspirations Bards get at L1 will likely be used to heal, so they'll be in the mindset of using them in other ways than the previous.

So you'll know a bit from all 3 lists in the end.

No, potentially only two. You can pick Arcane as an option, which lets you get ANY Arcane spells (and I suspect I would pick that myself - probably go Arcane/Primal, though I suspect Arcane/Divine is the pure min-max), so given two magical secrets you may well have just Arcane (limited schools), Arcane, and Primal/Divine. But if you want all three, you can get it!

You can no longer use Bardic Inspiration and Cutting Words in the same round. It used to be that you could hand off a bardic inspiration on your turn and then cutting words as your reaction. With them both being reactions now, this isn't possible.

That's a pretty corner-case issue. The number of rounds/adventure, let alone per day where you'd actually want to do that is probably lower than 1, and impacts one specific subclass only.

I'm not trying to be mean but it literally is an issue impacting a small percentage of Bard players in the end.

I also feel like a large number of bards will choose Primal for their magical secrets. It will open up blasting, control and I think revival spells for them, and that's everything you may want from the other two lists.

That's my thinking.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The consideration is flavor.

A Bard wields magic by voice − whether song, command, praise or satire.

The Bard never uses a component pouch because to do so would be WRONG.

I honestly think WotC need to rethink components entirely. They're so dumb and outdated - WotC are so unnecessarily married to V/S/M. If they were willing to ditch them and not look back for the right classes, there's so much more they could do with the spell system. Bards should be V components only unless it's CASH MONEY YO. If you want Psionicists to work with D&D spells, make them S components only and able to suppress that. Make Rangers M components only and suddenly their spells look a bit less irritating. And so on.

And they're another thing almost no-one tracks (again, c.f. podcasts/streams if anyone is going to say "BUT MUH HOMEGAME!").

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Inspiration was a little-used concept too, but WotC is pushing that HARD.

Yep. My number one note to WotC would be "stop trying so hard to make inspiration happen".

And I kind of like inspiration.

 

[Shiroiken]

The consideration is flavor.

A Bard wields magic by voice − whether song, command, praise or satire.

The Bard never uses a component pouch because to do so would be WRONG.

Your flavor preference isn't mine. Bards are still wielding arcane magics, so a component pouch is perfectly acceptable to me. The idea of allowing a bard to ignore most material components because "flavor" would be wrong.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Because the Bard masters both Illusion and Transmutation, and specializes in defense and support, I see no difficulty with a Bard casting Mage Armor and Shield.

Just because you don't see any issue, doesn't mean it may not be there. Also, even if we gave them all abjuration spells.... it still wouldn't give them any healing spells, because the Arcane List has no healing spells. And if you read magical secrets, it ignores the school restriction. So, you aren't arguing for them to get healing spells naturally, you are arguing for them to get shield, dispel magic, mage armor, ect.

The problem is with the spell schools themselves being an inconsistent and less useful way to organize spells thematically.

For example, if force-effect spells were all part of the same spell thematic, including Fly, Telekinesis, Unseen Servant and Shield, I wouldnt want the Bard to have it. (But as a Magical Secret it is fine.)

But as-is, the spell schools are a clumsy way to organize spells. The source lists of Primal, Arcane, and Divine, are even worse.

Within this dysfunctional D&D spell school tradition, the Bard might as well have all Abjuration spells.

You will never have a way to divide these spells that is optimal thematically. The spell schools are rather useless, but they are not something we will likely find a better version of any time soon.

Personally, I think Bard's should be getting necromancy spells. Bestow Curse and Animate Dead are pretty mythically bardic abilities, But I can see why that wasn't something that they wanted to do.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Also, can we get finally rid of either Perform or instrument tool proficiencies? The idea that someone can play an instrument but not perform with it is just goofy. Perform is such a ridiculously narrow use skill anyways. We may as well bring back Read Lips. Move Perform to the tool category of secondary skills (along w artistic ability).

They actually have fixed this though? Having Perform and an Instrument allows you to roll with advantage. Instrument allows you to play the instrument, perform allows you to dance, sing, paint ect. I like having it this way.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That's a pretty corner-case issue. The number of rounds/adventure, let alone per day where you'd actually want to do that is probably lower than 1, and impacts one specific subclass only.

I'm not trying to be mean but it literally is an issue impacting a small percentage of Bard players in the end.

Well, we don't know that, do we? Most bard subclasses interacted with Bardic Inspiration, and most of them gave an additional way to use them. For example, the Glamour Bard could use it to give temp hp and free movement. Right now, for One D&D, 100% of all Bard players are dealing with this issue, and it could end up being a design choice that persists through the subclasses. I'd rather catch it now, and call it out, then find that they end up making the majority of Bard's work this way and have all bardic inspiration abilities be a reaction instead of bonus action or reaction.

Additionally, I disagree with your assessment of how often this may come up. The use of healing to stabilize an ally may be rare, but the use of Bardic inspiration vs cutting words is going to happen every single combat. Because every combat is going to have allies failing saving throws or missing attacks, and every combat is going to have enemies making attacks or succeeding saving throws. And it is very much one or the other now, where previously you could do both, even if it did burn through your resources faster.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Your flavor preference isn't mine. Bards are still wielding arcane magics, so a component pouch is perfectly acceptable to me. The idea of allowing a bard to ignore most material components because "flavor" would be wrong.

If you're not going to use the actual components (which I enjoy doing for wizards and clerics at least because its flavourful) why bother with the pouch? Just dump the idea entirely.