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Bards - The Greatest of All Classes

gizmo, kigzomat,

I don't really get what's being debated here. It seems to me that gizmo has a setting-specific idea of the bard class; as long as he can acknowledge that it is just that, I'm not sure we can really disagree with him. kigzomat is sensibly showing how gizmo's bard is setting-specific but I don't actually see what the disagreement is.
 

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gizmo33 said:
At the risk of repeating myself (understandable given the complications here) - it is the modern reader (which includes myself) who is confused about who Hengist and Horsa were.
No, that was Bede:
"Duces fuisse perhibentur eorum primi duo fratres Hengist et Horsa; e quibus Horsa postea occisus in bello a Brettonibus, hactenus in orientalibus Cantiae partibus monumentum habet suo nomine insigne."
 

kigmatzomat said:
You seem to misunderstand the word "oblique." Ignoring the mathematical definitions it means "indirect or evasive; devious, misleading, or dishonest."

True. true. Your bard-fu is indeed strong. But now enlightened, my point still stands. Calling someone elses statements "indirect or evasive" is a judgement that can say more about the background of the reader than anything else. I might call some lawyer's contracted "oblique" if I didn't have a background in his specialized knowledge. In spite of how "sure" scholars are that the oral tradition of these cultures was indeed broken at times, and changed over time, my opinion is that the cultures themselves did not believe this. And since these cultures are the ones that have informed us about dragons, and since we believed them with that, why are we such sticklers about realism in this area? The consequence is a bard class at times that is barely playable.

kigmatzomat said:
Careful, your bias is showing.

I hope so! The bias _against_ poetic sagas has been so strong in most FRP gaming literature that the bard has been relegated to some sort of "trash collector of gossip" in 3E. I really think that this stems from the fact that the bulk of our modern knowledge comes from written sources, and the culture that valued oral sources is foreign to us.

kigmatzomat said:
All non-divine knowledge is imprecise. The finite nature of man alone ensures that. Written lore has one advantage over oral: it remains static. Oral tradition has an advantage over written lore: it can be explained. Both have errors introduced by the writer/speaker and reader/listener. Only true mind-to-mind communication could perfectly duplicate knowledge 100% of the time.

And killing a lion with a club is a pretty insane but stories such as those are the inspiration for the fighters of DnD (ok, not the first level fighters). Remember, I'm only using realism when it serves my purpose and that seems fair considering that the design of the fighter class only uses realism when it serves it's purpose as well.
 

Ah, the bias against bards.

First off, the World's Biggest Dungeon line is stupid, right off the bat. If you're gonna say that, when the Bardic Lore check, as written in the SRD, says "Extremely obscure, known by very few, possibly forgotten by most who once knew it, possibly known only by those who don’t understand the significance of the knowledge" for the DC 30 check, that the dungeon is still outside the scope, you're essentially saying, "Hey, you, with the class ability! You can't use it! Hah!" It's not the bard's only class ability -- it's not like filling the dungeon with creatures utterly immune to arcane magic, for instance -- but it's possibly as bad as filling an entire dungeon without putting in anything that a cleric could turn, or any traps that a rogue or barbarian could get a Trap Sense bonus against. If you want to make it unlikely, slap that DC 30 on it. Don't just say no, unless you're also saying no to a bunch of other second-tier class abiltiies.

As far as bards go in D&D classes, I like 'em. They're probably my favorite class. If I'm playing, that's what I'd like to play. Of course, I have this strange and arcane concept known as "The ability to imagine flavor text that works within the campaign", and that apparently puts me in a massive minority.

Romantic hero campaign: The bard is a beautiful woman who sings songs of beauty and light while swinging her sword, and all her friends go "Dang, she's hot," and fight harder. Silly, yes, but the romantic hero campaign is an inherently silly campaign.

Gritty, music-not-appropriate campaign: The bard is a spymaster and teller of tales, and he can call out tactical advice gleaned from a hundred ancient battle sagas to help his comrades. It's completely the same, numberswise, but the flavor is different, and he tells legends in the same way. It's a Perform(Storytelling) check.

Oriental Adventures: The bard is a ninja, given his mix of mind-affecting (and illusion) magic and skill use. If pressed into a fight, he throws off his opponents (and thus gives his allies a chance to hit) by declaiming his deadly prowess as he fights -- the usual deadly ninja spiel. "I am the wind, the thunder that shakes the mountains, my blade shivers from the echoes of the death cries of a thousand demons, etc."

Humorous, anachronism-friendly campaign: The bard is The Mouth. He's Chris Tucker in Rush Hour. In fact, his bardic music is trash talk that pisses off everyone around him, rattling the nerves of his enemies and annoying his friends to the point where they get angrier and do a better job of hitting other people just to shut The Mouth up. "Oh, you think you gonna hit me with that Greatclub? Please, I hit yo' mama better than that last night with my OWN greatclub, and that was just 'cause she was askin' me to!"

On a mechanical basis, the bard is an excellent support character, and if you're comfortable playing a support character, he rocks. His buffs are good enough to take the pressure off the cleric or wizard to buff party members, meaning that the cleric or wizard can do other fun spells instead. He can fulfill the same secondary combat role as other lightly armored folks, helping to flank or providing the low-damage-but-important-to-hit attacks that keep enemy spellcasters busy. If there's already a party rogue, the bard can pick up the slack in any areas the rogue doesn't cover -- and he can be the face-man in a campaign that is more complex than simple dungeon-hacking.

The bard is lousy in a dungeon-hack campaign in which spellcasters have time to rest between each combat (thus making the "free up spell slots" thing a moot point), and in campaigns where the DM decided to give all the classes additional skill points or additional class skills, thus removing a lot of the bard's coolness (not to mention the rogue's...). The bard shines in any campaign allowing for a lot of NPC interaction and offering skill-based ways to solve problems beyond straight-up combat. While the players who like focus will lambast the bard for not being the best at anything on a level-to-level comparison, the bard is far and away the best utility player, and is almost never useless. He can contribute as a second-tier combatant, a secondary spellcaster for mind-affecting or illusion spells (and some buffs), a buffer, or a skill-user. No other class can do that. (The ranger comes close -- that class offers more combat ability at the cost of a little skill flexibility and a little more magical ability.)

But then, as I said, mystical ability to actually come up with my own flavor text appropriate to a campaign. I guess I'm just special.
 

fusangite said:
I think that because D&D tech tends to point towards the Late Middle Ages, the designers weirdly combined the essentially Celtic bard with the medieval troubador in a way that is less than 100% satisfactory. I think weapon proficiencies, flavour text and less focus on written (vs. oral) knowledge could centre the Bard where it belongs, in the early/pre-medieval period with the Barbarian instead of the Late Medieval period with the Paladin.

Polytheism, I think we can agree, is a staple of fantasy campaigns and that is an anachronism for the time period as well. And the paladin as it exists in the rules stems from a fantasy novel and has little basis in anything legendary/historical.

The previous poster was right in saying that my arguments are campaign specific. But I think they're a campaign specific idea, like polytheism, that should get some consideration from DMs, and it speaks to the playability of bards as a class.

With less hyperbole, what I'm trying to say is: bardic lore can (and probably should) be capable of amazing results. The capacity of the trained loremaster should be considered a serious force on par with a high level fighter's ability to jump off of a cliff or a wizard's ability to stop time. Please consider not nerfing such ability in your campaigns.
 

gizmo said:
The bias _against_ poetic sagas has been so strong in most FRP gaming literature that the bard has been relegated to some sort of "trash collector of gossip" in 3E.
I agree here. But I don't think that is that specific to 3E; D&D has always had trouble representing mythic pre-modern settings from the very beginning. One has to do work to make D&D work with those settings; one can -- I often do -- but it doesn't change the fact that mythic premodern is not D&D's natural mode.

Unadulterated D&D is modern people thinking modern thoughts in a modern world full of medieval tech and magic. There is just the lightest veneer of non-modern things. As a result, of course the bard is marginalized. Look at the D&D language system; one of the first things that setting materials seeking to represent non-modern things do is they make it way harder to learn to read. They don't make everybody automatically literate.
I really think that this stems from the fact that the bulk of our modern knowledge comes from written sources, and the culture that valued oral sources is foreign to us.
Agreed. But, again, I think that this is a tough sell to D&D players.

There are many problems in the 3.x classes that arise from imposing essentially modern (ie. literate, cosmopolitan, quantitative, etc.) cultures on the game but that is what has happened. Your critique is broader than simply the bard class -- it's of D&D as a whole.

I agree with your criticism but not your proposed solution. What D&D needs is greater modularity so that it can more easily support both modernist drag fantasy gaming and the kind of game you and I like to play. But I don't think there's a chance in hell that we can reform the rules to support our kind of world instead of the worlds that most games take place in.
 


Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Arthur and his Knights sure are legendary...

The term paladin stems from the peers of Charlemange AFAIK. The lay on hands, detect evil, and such abilities of the classic 1E fantasy were taken/inspired, AFAIK, from a novel called "Three Hearts and Three Lions" from Poul Anderson. I can't think of a single knight of Arthur's who can: heal by touch, detect evil, summon an intelligent horse, and cast cleric spells. But certainly to make a playable and interesting character class, the authors of DnD were willing to go beyond just history, and even beyond the legendary basis to form something that would compete with the other classes.
 

gizmo33 said:
And the paladin as it exists in the rules stems from a fantasy novel and has little basis in anything legendary/historical.
I hope you don't see that "and" as some kind of causal statement. Gygax's inspiration came from that particular novel but the paladin class references a grail knight/warrior saint pretty strongly.
The previous poster was right in saying that my arguments are campaign specific. But I think they're a campaign specific idea, like polytheism, that should get some consideration from DMs, and it speaks to the playability of bards as a class.

With less hyperbole, what I'm trying to say is: bardic lore can (and probably should) be capable of amazing results. The capacity of the trained loremaster should be considered a serious force on par with a high level fighter's ability to jump off of a cliff or a wizard's ability to stop time.
Can you give an example of what that could mean in mechanical terms?
Please consider not nerfing such ability in your campaigns.
"Not nerfing" -- no -- you're not asking them not to nerf something; you're asking them to consider a rules variant you want to propose that works for some settings and not others. And I agree with you to an extent.
 


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