Battle Cleric vs. Warlord

[Victim]

Battle clerics, in most groups, seemed to be inferior leaders compared to warlords IMO. Yes, Righteous Brand is amazing. However, it does have its limitations. Righteous Brand only boosts melee attacks - it's great when you have a melee ranger to use that bonus on multiple attacks. OTOH, what if you have an archer ranger? Then it's not looking so hot. Warlords do have powers that can help out those characters offensively, even though they do depend a lot on having someone with a good melee basic. Most battle cleric encounters don't provide any sort of offensive boost, whereas there are plenty of warlord powers that do. Furious Smash can apply to anyone too, even if it has more stringent positioning requirements and only works on one attack. By the time you've reached paragon levels, that at will power is still your best buff, but rather terrible offensively for you.

A battle cleric with 20 STR isn't really using his Healer's Lore feature. A warlord who doesn't mind weakening his other abilities can drop them for 20 STR too. Or they can take their MP feats to add a secondary stat to heals and end up healing for more than the cleric.

Also, since you took a bigger weapon, you're running around in melee with Chain and no shield. That's 16 AC at level 1. So you probably have most of the party's healing while your both exposed due to needing melee and vulnerable due to low defenses. Leaders IME seem to draw enough fire already - and usually when you get messed up, it's harder for other people to save you the way you can save them.

Additionally, warlords tend to have more powers that offer saves, especially with bonuses, compared to clerics (even though clerics do have more healing things).

Finally, warlords can generally match a battle cleric [W] for [W] - at least. If a warlord doesn't go down a route emphasizing personal attack and damage, it's because there's a perceived benefit to not doing so.

 

[tiornys]

I think your assessment of "decent damage" and mine are somewhat different.
Wanna compare damage output level by level?

It's not my fault that you're using "decent" to refer to a damage output that is well above the average. If you'll recall, I claimed the Battle Cleric's damage as "good".

On the subject of novas (you did not specify early combat novas), Brand is right up there.
1) It hits more often than a warlord's attacks
2) It applies to all melee attack rolls ... meaning your ally can AP and get that bonus multiple times. On the most effective powers.

Brand is good at promoting a nova, but it only increases 1 ally's attack vs. 1 enemy in melee. TacLords can do that, but can also buff ranged allies, grant damage bonuses to synergize with the attack bonuses, and can grant extra attacks while the ally is buffed. At higher levels, they can grant large attack bonuses that work against any targets, and eventually can grant large party wide attack bonuses.

But that's still beside the point. Taclords add initiative, clerics don't.
So what?
If we're talking 'making combats significantly easier,' a precast shield of faith nerfs every incoming AC targeting attack by -2.
So can Divine Power (though generally speaking, dishing out more damage while 'only' buffing self + defender is probably a better use for it)

Your claim that "I did decent damage, and buffs too" is weak. Doesn't the cleric hit more often, deal more damage, and grant bigger buffs?

Hit more often? Slightly. Deal more damage? Somewhat. Grant bigger buffs? Nope. The Battle Cleric grants a melee ally +5 to attacks for the round at level 2. The TacLord at level 2 grants a melee ally +5 to attacks for the round, +4 to damage for the round (against any target), and two additional attacks at a further +4 to damage. Oh, and when the ally spends that action point, he does so at a net +7 to attack and +8 to damage. If the situation calls for it, the +5 to attacks can go to a ranged ally instead, and they can also get the +4 to damage, and the action point boost, but not extra attacks. At least, not until level 7....

For nova purposes, whether early combat or later (but really, why are we novaing at the end of combat?), the Warlord is superior, because he's built to be.

As an aside, the TacLord generally doesn't do as much to buff his personal damage because he can spend those resources elsewhere, and then when he needs to be doing awesome personal damage he uses one of his allies who has spent the resources to make his attacks at extra damage.

t~

 

[BobTheNob]

In a melee heavy party, a Battle Cleric that starts with 20 Strength and takes Righteous Brand has the best leader at-will by far. If you're at low heroic and are using mainly at-wills, it's going to be hard for any other leader to compete.

20 Str just to make righteous brand work? If there is one thing I hate its when a build revolves around one power (especially when its an at-will). To me its just an indicator that something is due for erata. Which is ammusing, because its so often the case that what is in the erata are those sort of things (Rain of Blows, Avengers with Hide armor...e.t.c.)

Now, we just have to sit back and wait for righteous brand to take its place and this discussion can be put to bed!

 

[Elric]

20 Str just to make righteous brand work? If there is one thing I hate its when a build revolves around one power (especially when its an at-will). To me its just an indicator that something is due for erata. Which is ammusing, because its so often the case that what is in the erata are those sort of things (Rain of Blows, Avengers with Hide armor...e.t.c.)

Now, we just have to sit back and wait for righteous brand to take its place and this discussion can be put to bed!

Righteous Brand doesn't need 20 Strength to work. 18 would be plenty. However, when you play a Heavy Armor class you don't have to worry about adding a secondary stat to AC, so there's a lower opportunity cost to an 18 pre-racial primary stat (and a high primary stat increases to-hit and damage, a big upside). Since Strength also increases RB's secondary effect, this further increases the benefits of high Strength for the character.

You lose out on Healer's Lore, as has been pointed out, but 20 Str still seems like a good idea.

 

[tiornys]

20 Str just to make righteous brand work? If there is one thing I hate its when a build revolves around one power (especially when its an at-will). To me its just an indicator that something is due for erata. Which is ammusing, because its so often the case that what is in the erata are those sort of things (Rain of Blows, Avengers with Hide armor...e.t.c.)

Now, we just have to sit back and wait for righteous brand to take its place and this discussion can be put to bed!

Righteous Brand is strong, but it's no Rain of Blows. It probably should have had its effect key off of a secondary stat rather than the primary stat, but if you were to change that you'd want to provide more benefits from that secondary stat in other powers (right now only 8 powers key off of Strength and use Charisma for anything, and one of those looks like a misprint). Besides, which is more of a secondary stat for a Battle Cleric, Wisdom or Charisma? Without a full redesign of the build, I don't think it's a good idea to mess with Righteous Brand. (Of course, the power certainly doesn't need to be strengthened. Why WotC had eleven of the domains apply to Righteous Brand when only five apply to Priest's Shield is beyond me.)

Besides, 20 Str has plenty of benefits for a Battle Cleric besides Righteous Brand. It does, after all, boost every encounter and daily attacking power the character uses, improve the character's Fortitude, and it boosts Athletics, which is the second or third most combat relevant skill.

Honestly, every class wants to consider a starting 20 in their attack stat. Most classes get too many benefits from their secondary stats and/or need those stat points to qualify for key feats, which makes it wrong to buy the 20, but for those that can get away with it (such as archer Rangers, Rogues, and some Wizards), it's always among the best options.

t~

 

[Valetudo]

Battle clerics with 20 str usually have terrible ACs.It doesnt give you many points for armor spec. or prof.

 

[tiornys]

Battle clerics with 20 str usually have terrible ACs.It doesnt give you many points for armor spec. or prof.

A Str/Con race can have 20/13/8/10/14/10, and a Str/Wis race can have 20/13/8/10/15/10. Both let you spend a feat for Scale, which is pretty respectable. If the character needs further defense, he can take light/heavy shield prof. I don't consider Scale to be terrible AC (actually, Chain is my minimum baseline for acceptable AC, so I think they're fine anyway), but your metric may differ.

t~

 

[Pickles JG]

Righteous Brand is strong, but it's no Rain of Blows. It probably should have had its effect key off of a secondary stat rather than the primary stat, but if you were to change that you'd want to provide more benefits from that secondary stat in other powers (right now only 8 powers key off of Strength and use Charisma for anything, and one of those looks like a misprint). Besides, which is more of a secondary stat for a Battle Cleric, Wisdom or Charisma? Without a full redesign of the build, I don't think it's a good idea to mess with Righteous Brand. (Of course, the power certainly doesn't need to be strengthened. Why WotC had eleven of the domains apply to Righteous Brand when only five apply to Priest's Shield is beyond me.)

Honestly, every class wants to consider a starting 20 in their attack stat. Most classes get too many benefits from their secondary stats and/or need those stat points to qualify for key feats, which makes it wrong to buy the 20, but for those that can get away with it (such as archer Rangers, Rogues, and some Wizards), it's always among the best options.
t~

Righteous brand could be a fixed bonus, perhaps scaling with tier (+2 +3 +4) so it gains something over the other buffer at will. It is a bit too good - probably the difference between a Cleric & a Warlord in power too good

20s are good but homogenise characters too much for my liking. I like the secondary effects I get to be significant so find it very hard to go with a 20, though I appreciate the benefits.

 

[tiornys]

Righteous brand could be a fixed bonus, perhaps scaling with tier (+2 +3 +4) so it gains something over the other buffer at will. It is a bit too good - probably the difference between a Cleric & a Warlord in power too good

I'm still not buying that Battle Clerics are superior in any case. Danceofmask's claim seems to be that Battle Clerics do everything that Warlords do, except better, and a few other things besides. I believe I've convincingly demonstrated that Warlords are better at some things than Battle Clerics, but that's really only half of the discussion.

I believe that the things TacLords do better than Battle Clerics--large bonuses to initiative, large attack bonuses handed out without needing a roll, the ability to pile on extra attacks, a very strong boost to ally action points, and access to encounter and daily powers that are among the best at promoting novas--are important enough to make an optimized TacLord the best leader class/build, assuming competent basic attacks and at least one good melee basic attack in the party, starting in mid paragon. In early heroic, the Battle Cleric is definitely superior (to all leaders--nothing else compares to Righteous Brand at that point), and in later heroic and early paragon, the classes are about equal. Lacking competent basic attacks around them, the TacLord (and Warlords in general) are significantly weaker than most other leaders, although they can still function reasonably.

t~

 

[Pickles JG]

Yeah my tactical warlord is my favourite character & usually feels effective. Effectiveness does vary with party composition - leaders do seem to be most sensitive to this.

We played LFR the other day with 3 tactical warlords which meant oodles of buffs & healing & free saves. The barbarian made a lot of attacks . I think the 5 tactical warlords party is the best delving party (maybe splashing some resourceful ones). MC fighter for Rain of Blows & go nuts with APs. Possibly one MC wizard for Flameshroud (?).