Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 4 NSCR/8.5.05

Storm Raven said:
Perhaps, but that assumes facts not in evidence. The only information we have about Roslin's views on this is that she planned to hold elections when the time came, and would accept victory or defeat at the polls (I say "planned", because this was before the whole martial law thing cropped up).

I know there is no evidence, but most of this thread is speculative, that's the whole point I thought. We don't know for sure what is going to happen at all, it is a TV show and the writers I'm sure, like the cylons, have a plan, but they can change it if they need to based upon cast and ratings.
 

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Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
Now, Roslin has made some bad decisions...but I don't think she's stupid enough to run off with civilians without any kind of defense.
The preview for next week made it sound like she was about to make another bad decision. To Quote the preview, Roslin "I invite my followers to join my over Kobol...."

I am just thinking that Adama will want to try to eventualy bow to Roslin and jump to Kobol. He can try to protect any over Kobol with Raptors but this will end up being a waste of effort. They have not shown the Vipers to be Jump caple, but have shown the Raptor to be a Heavy fighter/scout/Wild Weasel. The Battlestar Galatica Game that came out with the miniseries was based on the miniseries backstory and had the Vipers capable of short FTL fight. I never finished the game to see if it was any more that 10 to 30 light seconds.
 

Thornir Alekeg said:
I know there is no evidence, but most of this thread is speculative, that's the whole point I thought. We don't know for sure what is going to happen at all, it is a TV show and the writers I'm sure, like the cylons, have a plan, but they can change it if they need to based upon cast and ratings.
If I was Roslin and/or Adama I would try to hold a series of elections ending with presdent election. Owing to the fact that it is very unlikely that they have voteing apratius already installed on ships other than the Galatica, or enought trained election monitors. Even with the Quorm of 12 espoid last season it seamed that some were appointed by Roslin. Well Anonted might be a better term.

-TanisFrey
 

FYI, here's the dialog from the mini-series about the 12 models:

Baltar: What have I done? [pause] What am I going to do? [pause] There's no way out.

Six: I know.

Baltar: Sure you know. It's your doing, isn't it?! [pause] Wait! Wait, there has to be another way out of here! I mean, I mean you must have an escape plan, you're not about to be destroyed by your own bombs, are you. How, how are you leaving?!

[Nuke goes off in the distance]

Baltar: Oh! [in agony]

Six: Gaius, I can't die. When this body's destroyed, my memory, my consciousness, will be transmitted to a new one. I'll just wake up somewhere else in an identical body.

Baltar: You mean there's more out there like you?

Six: There are twelve models. I'm number six.

Baltar: I don't wanna die, I don't wanna die [crying].

Six: Get down!

[Baltar ducks down behind her and an explosion rips through the room.]


So... that sounds more to me like there are 12 human-like models. But it's still maddeningly vague.
 

Fast Learner said:
Six: Gaius, I can't die. When this body's destroyed, my memory, my consciousness, will be transmitted to a new one. I'll just wake up somewhere else in an identical body.

Baltar: You mean there's more out there like you?

Six: There are twelve models. I'm number six.

<snip>

So... that sounds more to me like there are 12 human-like models. But it's still maddeningly vague.

But looking at the context, Six is speaking about identical bodies into which her consciousness will be transmitted when Baltar asks about more like her. That could imply that there are 12 identical copies of the female cylon we refer to as "Six," a couple of which have been killed. I know it is not likely, but it is vague enough to be possible.
 

Storm Raven said:
How many toasters did they put on board? Not many. If they'd wanted to wipe the ship clean, I would think they would have sent a bigger boarding party.

Well, there are two options:

1) The Cylons tried their best to wipe out the humans; or
2) The Cylons toyed with them.

Given that the complement of that boarding shuttle came within feet of dooming* the entire known human race, I rather think they were trying their best with what they had available. If they were toying with them, they'd've had to stop when it became obvious they were becoming too successful.

* - I rather doubt they'd've gotten the entire fleet after depressurizing the Galactica and turning the batteries on the ships. However, they'd've been defenseless, and lived so long as they could hyper away ahead of the Cylons and not run into a trap.

I've begun to think that there are, in fact, 13 factions of cylons; the 12 anthroforms, and the toasters. The toasters want to wipe out humanity, but aren't above cooperating with the anthroforms in their little games. The anthroforms may be in charge (are they?), but that doesn't mean the toasters are without influence.

Hrm...13 factions, for 13 human worlds?

Brad
 


Ecliptic...as I ask Storm Raven, I will ask you.

Put it on ice. Please...and I am asking nicely.

And for the sake of this thread not being closed again, please remove those quotes, you have marked with Storm Raven responses. *I wish not see fires here, for foolishness*

Thank you.

**UPDATE*thank you
 
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Thornir Alekeg said:
But looking at the context, Six is speaking about identical bodies into which her consciousness will be transmitted when Baltar asks about more like her. That could imply that there are 12 identical copies of the female cylon we refer to as "Six," a couple of which have been killed. I know it is not likely, but it is vague enough to be possible.
Seems to me that "models" in the context of machines pretty much always means different ones, not copies of the same one. But that's my take.
 

LightPhoenix said:
The problem is convoluted, I think.

One problem is that morally strong, mentally healthy people are extremely tough to write, without falling into a number of pitfalls. They easily come off as boring, since they don't really have meaningful conflict. Sure, you can say there's conflict, but if you know a character is strong enough to defeat it, it isn't meaningful, and thus boring. Another easy pitfall is that they become preachy. Various characters throughout Star Trek have this flaw in their writing. Finally, I also think that such traits actually dehumanize the characters when written poorly, making them harder to relate to and thus harder to like. Why? Because most people out there have issues. That doesn't mean they are morally bankrupt or mentally unstable, but no one is perfect.

Another problem is that of society, and this is two-fold. For one, people like to see a hero fail. It makes them feel better about their own inadequacies, perceived and/or real. For another, society, at least in the US, is a bit more cynical and a bit more accepting of people having issues. The internet has everyone communicating and sharing with relative anonymity, and what we're realizing is that these problems we think are unique aren't really uncommon at all. Even thirty years ago, problems like this would be swept under the rug, and it was strongly frowned upon to be talking about them. That's why OS-Starbuck is a perfect hero, and NS-Starbuck is so flawed as to barely be called a hero at all. Also, the increase in cynicism leads to an increase in snarkiness and sarcasm.

Third, a series needs to go somewhere. It needs movement, otherwise it stagnates. In a character driven drama, which I don't think you'd disagree BSG counts as, that movement has to be through the characters. A character who is morally and mentally strong and healthy doesn't have much room to grow at all. Thus, any time spent on that character is stagnating the show, because there's no growth in the character, no change. That quickly gets boring, and quickly loses viewers. Now, if NS-Starbuck grows into that hero, that's a lot more interesting that starting her off there; it's a sense of movement and growth.

Now, does this necessarily all need to be because of character flaws? Well, yes and no. it really boils down to the basic premise of the show. John Crichton on Farscape is a realtively unflawed character whose tension and growth come from other sources - being a fish out of water is the major one. This works because Farscape is not really, IMO, character driven drama - at least not nearly to the extent BSG is. Also, it works because of the premise - he's set up as not knowing anything, and being thrust into a new universe and sudden responsibility for it. Firefly is the same way - it works because Simon and to a lesser extent Book and Jayne are from different cultures than the rest of the crew, and that creates conflict. Again though, that's a function of a premise. The premise of BSG is that humans started off in a relatively equal setting; what cultural differences there are between the colonies are de-emphasized when they're discussed at all, setting them up as being minor. The vast majority of the crew is military. The conflict that arises with Baltar (as the traitor) and Rosalyn (as the civilian) works without being too character driven, because they have something to go against. Compare that to Tyrol, or Tigh, or Adama, or Starbuck, who don't have that.

All that said, I don't totally disagree with your gripe. Especially with BSG, it seems to be carried to an extreme, especially with Tigh and Starbuck. And the big conflict of military vs. civilian seems to get by far the most debate and discussion here on the boards. Certainly more than Tigh's alcoholism or Starbuck's general moral/mental suckiness. To cross shows again, Mal was one of the least interesting characters on Firefly, because the moral ambiguity tends to get old fast when there's other types of growth. Types which I don't think BSG explores enough, over these huge character flaws.

This was a very good thought provoking post. And it is true that if a character has no room for growth there is little to write about. I really think Star Trek Next Gen suffered from this. With execption of Data and Worf the others just seemed to have no room for any personal growth. I often thought they came across smug and sanctimonies.

Now IMO DS9 did not have this flaw. The characters all had room for growth From Sisko to Kira , Bashir and Odo. I think the character with the least growth was O'Brian but he was never a boring character. And these people with the exception of Quark had a lot of postive and moral characteristics.

On Firefly I think Mal is the heart of the show the one that makes it possible for the others to grow.

Now on BSG I have not seen that much growth yet. Tigh is still a drunk, Starbuck has not shown any growth at all. I know it is early yet and I hope to see some growth of these characters. One compliant I have heard about old BSG was how cheesy it was and that it did not have the depth of the new show. These are true to some extent. (A little rant here it bugs the living daylight out of me though when the show is dimissed and sneered at by fans of the new show. After all if it was not for the old show and that shows fan who kept it a live and viable you would not have the new show) rant over.

I saw the show when I was a young 18 pregnant with my son and it inspired me. It was fun and we had not seen anything like that on TV since Trek went off the air. I found the characters to be what I considered heroes. Also I liked the loyalty they had for each other. Adama was a wise leader a less cranky Gandulf. I think if you rolled Roslin and Bill Adama into one character you would have the old Adama. Coming from a messed up family myself I liked seeing a family that loved each other and got along the way Adama, Athena and Apollo did. For all its 70s tv chessyness I consider it one of my top ten shows of all times.

So I was a little in shock over the new show. There are some things I really like about the new show Gaius Baltar is a great character even if he did not on purpose help the cyclons destroy the colonies. As I have said before I think the character of Roslin rocks. One of my favorite scenes is the one from the mini series where she gives the order for the ships with FTL to leave behind the ships that didn't have it.

Apollo was my favorite character on the old show and he is my favorite on the new show. They both had the ability and the will to do what they felt was right. Both seemed to have a strong sense of personal ethics.

I was not that impressed with Adama in the mini series and I am still not. I think he makes mistakes some bad ones and don't I feel that he comes across as a strong leader. He would not inspire me to follow him.

I cannot stand Tigh or Starbuck though I would like to see Starbuck try and get her act together she has a lot that the fleet needs.

One thing I really like about the new show is seeing the support staff like Tyrol and Cally. The ones who were not career military like Cally who was using it as a way to go to dental school. We never saw that in the old show though it was different because they had been at war with the cyclons for a thousand yahern.

I like the new cyclons because they are more interesting and for me I just can't cheer there defeat because it is not black and white. From what I have seen they may well have had a valid point in their act of destroying their creators who enslaved them. For all we know they have evolved into a sentient race with the ability to love , hate and have a soul. Something that the humans even Adama are not willing to consider.

Though the old folks of old BSG were smarter they were not the ones who created the cyclons. ;)
 

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