Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 4 NSCR/8.5.05

[The_Universe]

I don't think they're pulling their punches.

I also don't see recklessness in MOST of those actions. The Chamala root...well, that's calculated risk, but I could see that as being reckless. Everyone does NOT know Baltar as crazy; eccentric, yes...but only those folks who know him personally...and they think of him as an oddball genius. By reputation (and previous media attention on Caprica) he's a helluva guy. I'm not sure what you mean by the 'whole situation with Zareck'...unless you mean the prez's distrust of him and moves to block him. Considering the man was willing to let his head be blown off to unseat the government 12 DAYS after the near-extinction of mankind...I'd say she's not crazy for being suspicious of him.

Mind you, Roslin doesn't see her actions as reckless, but of preserving the stability of the fleet. You could argue that she's become too convinced of her own righteousness...but that hardly puts her as unique in this show, don't you think?

I don't think she's a bad person, or anything - I just find the demonization of Adama galling, and think that the two characters are similarly flawed. The overriding assumption I seem to be getting from some of the posters (like Stormraven) is that Roslin is the misunderstood saint, and Adama is a powerhungry madman who has only suceeded because the Cylons aren't really trying.

I don't think either character is perfect, but I don't think the balance really shifts in either of their favors, either.

 

[Storm Raven]

How do we know the Cylons are pulling their punches? Did you and Ron Moore share a drink in which he revealed their otherwise mysterious motivations and methods?

Because they appear to have repreatedly not used their best efforts to destroy the humans. Look at Helo's story - the cylons explicitly said they weren't going to kill him unless he went the "wrong way". The Galactica seems to have been herded in a similar fashion. The cylons show up, make what appears to be a token effort to cause damage, and then get defeated - and impart information to the crew of the Galactica in the process.

I doubt it.

And since we *don't* know if that's the case, we can't say ("to be perfectly blunt") that it was a mistake or not. It certainly seems to have worked out well enough, which would tend to indicate that it was not a mistake at all.

He certainly has put the fleet in jeopardy for some trivial reasons. And asserted that he needed certain miltiary hardware that he ended up not needed. In point of fact, I'd point to the whole Boomer-on-the-Base-Star situation as evidence that the cylons aren't doing their best to destroy Galactica: they could have killed or captured Boomer when she landed, and then blown the Galactica apart if they had wanted. But they didn't.

As to Roslin's recklessness, I think I can point to the whole situation with Zareck, the Kamala Root, the secrecy of her cancer, and the fact that she chose Baltar as a vice president despite the fact that everyone *knows* he's crazy as further instances of her less than cautious nature.

None of which directly threaten the lives of the members of the fleet. The recklessness you posit is one of political issues, not one of security issues. And most of them were actually quite reasonable decisions. Who exactly has Roslin hurt by concealing her cancer? Why should she not take the medicine prescribed for her condition? With respect to Baltar, she had a choice between a known problem (as she then perceived it) in Zarek (a known and unrepentant terrorist), and Baltar, who seemed, at that time, to merely be an eccentric genius.

If you don't like Adama, that's fine. But don't paint pictures in the air and then tell me that's the way it's always been. In the land of speculation, ain't no man king.

I'm just pointing out the way he has behaved thus far. He likes to fight, that's his first instinct. He is willing to put the fleet in harm's way to do it, or just to rescue a downed pilot who (when he made the decision) may or may not be dead. He's dangerous, more so than it seems that Roslin could ever be.

 

[Storm Raven]

I don't think she's a bad person, or anything - I just find the demonization of Adama galling, and think that the two characters are similarly flawed. The overriding assumption I seem to be getting from some of the posters (like Stormraven) is that Roslin is the misunderstood saint, and Adama is a powerhungry madman who has only suceeded because the Cylons aren't really trying.

If the cylons had been trying, Roslin would be dead too. It cuts both ways. Roslin isn't a saint, but she's actually concerned with preserving what makes the 12 Colonies worth saving, while Adama only pays lip service to those ideals. Adama's decisions thus far have been fairly bad - his desire to fight the cylons rather than save the fleet in the premier, his decision to put the fleet in danger for Starbuck, his plan to attack the cylons at Kobol, and so on. He has succeeded, mostly, but not because of skill, but because he's gotten lucky. I think the writers have been building him up just to point out how hollow his victories have been. And, he arrested the President, and paved the way for martial law. That makes him subject to demonization right there.

I don't think either character is perfect, but I don't think the balance really shifts in either of their favors, either.

It seems to me like the guy who arrests the President because she second guessed his decision is a serious problem. Roslin's not perfect, but I'd much rather have her calling the shots than Adama. I'd at least get a vote once in a while concerning what the next step would be. Adama's problem is that he doesn't believe he should be accountable to anyone - he said as much to Tigh in the last episode. That's a fatal flaw, and a real black mark on his character.

 

[WizarDru]

I don't think she's a bad person, or anything - I just find the demonization of Adama galling, and think that the two characters are similarly flawed. The overriding assumption I seem to be getting from some of the posters (like Stormraven) is that Roslin is the misunderstood saint, and Adama is a powerhungry madman who has only suceeded because the Cylons aren't really trying.

I don't think either character is perfect, but I don't think the balance really shifts in either of their favors, either.

That's the thing: there is no wrong answer, no bad person. Adama has managed to keep that rag-tag fleet safe and sane for months. He's a hero, no question; trying to paint him as some sort of fascist is disingenious, IMHO. I think he acts a tad too emotionally, sometimes, but he's human after all.


....or.....is he? Did air-lock cylon lie? What was his goal, anyhow? The PLAN?

 

[The_Universe]

That's the thing: there is no wrong answer, no bad person. Adama has managed to keep that rag-tag fleet safe and sane for months. He's a hero, no question; trying to paint him as some sort of fascist is disingenious, IMHO. I think he acts a tad too emotionally, sometimes, but he's human after all.


....or.....is he? Did air-lock cylon lie? What was his goal, anyhow? The PLAN?

Well, Commander Adama's status as a cylon is something I can actually comment on with the ability to reference evidence in the show - when the first Leoban model was having trouble on the station in the miniseries because of the interference, Adama was just fine and dandy. So, if he's a humaniform cylon model, he's a much more advanced one than Leoban.

 

[WizarDru]

Well, Commander Adama's status as a cylon is something I can actually comment on with the ability to reference evidence in the show - when the first Leoban model was having trouble on the station in the miniseries because of the interference, Adama was just fine and dandy. So, if he's a humaniform cylon model, he's a much more advanced one than Leoban.

Very true. Adama is the only one we ARE sure about...that and Helo, I think. But what about Apollo? And the question remains: was he lying, and why did he say that? IS IT a plot to split the fleet in this way? Roslin certainly is less likely to trust Bill Adama when she suspects him of being a cylon (which she may now do given that Baltar's detector has been very publicly shown to be wrong).

 

[Storm Raven]

That's the thing: there is no wrong answer, no bad person. Adama has managed to keep that rag-tag fleet safe and sane for months.

Just as a note: Adama didn't keep the fleet together by himself. Roslin was a big part of accomplishing that as well. As Tigh seems to have found out the hard way. Galactica may be the big military fish in a small pond these days, but it depends on the other members of the fleet to continue functioning.

He's a hero, no question; trying to paint him as some sort of fascist is disingenious, IMHO. I think he acts a tad too emotionally, sometimes, but he's human after all.

Even heroes go wrong. I think Adama is an example of a military commander who is used to being obeyed, and not used to dealing with the multiple viewpoints that running a democratic government entails. I think he really doesn't believe himself to be a fascist, but I think his actions could make him one without him even realizing it. He's seems to be the sort of guy who says he believes in the ideals of the Articles of Confederation, but is willing to set them aside when they become inconvenient for him (unlike Apollo, who seems to be a true idealist), and ends up being a fascist without even realizing that is what he has become.

....or.....is he? Did air-lock cylon lie? What was his goal, anyhow? The PLAN?

That is the big question looming out there right now. Did the air-lock cylon tell the truth? If he did, is the "Adama" who is a cylon the elder one, or his son? If Boomer is a cylon, why did she shoot Adama?

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I agree that the cylons are for some reason pulling punches. I cannot quite decide if I think it is because they are herding the humans like cattle, or they are studying them like rats in a maze. I lean toward the latter. I feel that they are putting the humans into situations to see how they react and are measuring this. I don't think it is perfect as, just as players often do to DMs, the humans do not always follow the script the cylons have laid out.

As for Adama and Roslin, I think they are both dangerous because each of them feels they are the ones who have the right answers, and each of them controls a part of the fleet. I think Roslin is ultimately more dangerous because she is beginning to believe that she is the prophet, and therefore her actions and decisions are foretold. She can convince herself that any decision she makes has to be the correct one. Adama, I feel acts overall in the best interest of the fleet. He does sometimes make mistakes, acts from emotion and puts the Galactica and her crew as the most important aspect of the fleet, but overall, I think his actions and decisions are not as overall dangerous.

 

[Fast Learner]

I'm nearly positive in the mini-series they just said "12 models," and did not make it clear about the types. I'll be watching it again this week, so will keep an ear out.

I don't think the Cylons are pulling their punches: when the toaster models boarded the ship and headed for control of life support, do you think it was just a feint? I think they would have been happy to wipe the ship "clean."

There's little doubt, though, that the humans are being manipulated. Differing factions certainly makes sense.

My assumption about at least some of the Cylons' goals: get the fleet to lead them to Earth, so that the Cylons can wipe out every single human in the galaxy. Since Earth is a human thing, they are likely assuming that they'll need actual humans to lead them there.

 

[Storm Raven]

As for Adama and Roslin, I think they are both dangerous because each of them feels they are the ones who have the right answers, and each of them controls a part of the fleet. I think Roslin is ultimately more dangerous because she is beginning to believe that she is the prophet, and therefore her actions and decisions are foretold. She can convince herself that any decision she makes has to be the correct one. Adama, I feel acts overall in the best interest of the fleet. He does sometimes make mistakes, acts from emotion and puts the Galactica and her crew as the most important aspect of the fleet, but overall, I think his actions and decisions are not as overall dangerous.

Roslin may believe she is the prophet, but every indication given about her on the show thus far indicated that she is also a big believer in the Articles of Confederation. As a result, she seems to be willing to listen to the Quorum of Twelve, and is prepared to hold elections when her term is up, and accept the results even if she loses. I think that is the big difference between her and Adama - he seems to have very autocratic tendencies, I doubt that he would support general elections that might result in a "wrong" decisions any time soon.

I think that's why I tend to side with Roslin - the elected leader is almost always preferable to the self-appointed dictator.