Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 4 NSCR/8.5.05

[Fast Learner]

Now on BSG I have not seen that much growth yet. Tigh is still a drunk, Starbuck has not shown any growth at all.

I disagree about Starbuck. For example, in season 1, episode 4, she grew through her guilt about her role with the death of Zack, through acknowledging her mistake, and into an understanding that her responsibility goes beyond her personal preferences and fears.

That was good growth. Watch the episode again, if you can, and I think you'll see it, too. (I just finished watching it before I posted this.)

She's never going to get over being a hotshot: that's the definition of her character. But her other stuff I think she's growing through.

And Tigh: no, he's still an alcoholic. But he is becoming cognizant of how much it's ruining his life and the lives of others. He has tried, a couple of times, to get back on the wagon, and even seemed to succeed for a couple of episodes. He also seems to be coming close to the point where if others staged an intervention, he might well be able to get back on the wagon, at least for a while... the mistakes he made while the old man was out are just the kinds of "bottom of the barrel" problems that can spur a person to finally do something.

But he'll need to get his wife out of his life to do it: she's not just an enabler, she feeds him booze and bad ideas. (BTW, I no longer think she's a Cylon. Just a really poisonous person.)

 

[Truth Seeker]

I disagree about Starbuck. For example, in season 1, episode 4, she grew through her guilt about her role with the death of Zack, through acknowledging her mistake, and into an understanding that her responsibility goes beyond her personal preferences and fears.

That was good growth. Watch the episode again, if you can, and I think you'll see it, too. (I just finished watching it before I posted this.)

She's never going to get over being a hotshot: that's the definition of her character. But her other stuff I think she's growing through.

And Tigh: no, he's still an alcoholic. But he is becoming cognizant of how much it's ruining his life and the lives of others. He has tried, a couple of times, to get back on the wagon, and even seemed to succeed for a couple of episodes. He also seems to be coming close to the point where if others staged an intervention, he might well be able to get back on the wagon, at least for a while... the mistakes he made while the old man was out are just the kinds of "bottom of the barrel" problems that can spur a person to finally do something.

But he'll need to get his wife out of his life to do it: she's not just an enabler, she feeds him booze and bad ideas. (BTW, I no longer think she's a Cylon. Just a really poisonous person.)

I like the wife, sorta a reminder of where things can go wrong.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Although TruthSeeker isn't a moderator on this forum his request for civility is a plain simple call for good manners.

Good manners should be present without an actual moderator requesting it!

Just in case there is any need though, I would like to say officially - please keep on good behaviour. The last thread died in flames, we'll take a dim view if the same people drag this thread down in flames too.

Thanks,

 

[Storm Raven]

I know there is no evidence, but most of this thread is speculative, that's the whole point I thought. We don't know for sure what is going to happen at all, it is a TV show and the writers I'm sure, like the cylons, have a plan, but they can change it if they need to based upon cast and ratings.

Sure its speculative, but it is speculation based upon hints from the show. For example, I see Adama as having an autocratic streak based upon things he has said and done in the series. I speculate that the cylons are holding back from killing the humans because there have been a number of moments in the series where it looked like they could have wiped them out, but didn't. The only information we have concerning Roslin and elections is that she was planning on holding them (before the whole fracas with Adama), and gave no indication that she would not accept the results. Speculating that she would turn into a religious dictator is a whole different level of speculation. It wouldn't be an uninteresting direction for the show to take, and I wouldn't say it was impossible for Roslin's character to move in that direction. But there really hasn't been any groundwork laid for that kind of development.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

But there really hasn't been any groundwork laid for that kind of development.

So you don't feel that Roslin subverting a pilot who is considered a key component to a military action, despite agreeing that Adama has authority in military matters, in order to carry off her agenda to gain a religious artifact to be groundwork for her development into a religious zealot?

She did not confer with the Quorum, she did not attempt to impose her authority through proper channels. Instead she went behind Adama's back, filled Starbuck's head with tales of prophecy and salvation of the human race, and convinced her to fly off to Caprica.

To me that is clearly groundwork for a person who has decided that her vision is bigger than the system of rule and government.

 

[WizarDru]

She did not confer with the Quorum, she did not attempt to impose her authority through proper channels. Instead she went behind Adama's back, filled Starbuck's head with tales of prophecy and salvation of the human race, and convinced her to fly off to Caprica.

To me that is clearly groundwork for a person who has decided that her vision is bigger than the system of rule and government.

Poor, poor Starbuck. In only five minutes, Roslin hypnotized her, apparently. Darned Roslin's powers of passive-agressive hypnotism

Personally, I think you're attributing way too much forethought to Roslin's actions. Events have led her to believe a prophecy is true, and that she is part of it. How that plays out is anyone's guess - but I think the issue here is that you've already determined in the omniscient that she's wrong, and thus empirically all her actions are invalid. In the context of the story, I'm not sure if I'm ready to buy that either way. I'm pretty sure some complex things are happening, some controlled and some not.

Let's keep in mind that for the majority of the Colonials, the Lords of Kobol are a valid religion. If Starbuck has been raised since birth to believe that a savior will come in mankind's darkest hour and lead them to safety....well, the situation tends to be somewhat compelling, don't you think? Forget whether the Lords of Kobol are real or not...all that matters is that the characters believe in them, not us.

Two theories:

1) I still maintain that the Galactica was not meant to survive. The fleet was, but the cylons didn't want or expect Galactica to turn tail and guard the fleet. The cylons have been improvising since, but they are treating mankind like a lab rat, seeing what they do and why.

2) The cylons intend to repopulate Caprica...possibly with their new breed of hum-ylon; the New Lords of Cobol. If Six is to be believed, this is a cycle, to them. A cycle to be repeated. What if the Lords of Cobol were human-cylon half breeds? The secret of Kobol will answer much, I think.

 

[Storm Raven]

So you don't feel that Roslin subverting a pilot who is considered a key component to a military action, despite agreeing that Adama has authority in military matters, in order to carry off her agenda to gain a religious artifact to be groundwork for her development into a religious zealot?

The main point of contention here is that I fundamentally disagree with the notion that somehow, Adama's control of the military is independent of the civilian government. I know he worked out an informal arrangement with Roslin, but that was solely due to Roslin's own inexperience with military matters. It would be impossible for a government to function that had the military not subject to the orders of the chief executive (in point of fact, no one has been able to come up with a single example of a functioning government structured like that). She continually refers to "preserving our democratic way of life" and "upholding the Articles of Colonization" in support of her position, even using that line of reasoning when confronted with the sentry she had to talk her way past to escape, which leads me to believe that she is legally correct, but may not have the raw power to back that up. I also think that is why she was able to secure significant support for her escape from military personnel - two pilots, two members of the deck crew, the doctor, and at least four other crewmen helped her escape. That doesn't happen by accident. When her aide stayed behind, he didn't stay behind because she was acting illegally, he stayed behind because he thought her actions would divide the fleet.

She did not confer with the Quorum, she did not attempt to impose her authority through proper channels. Instead she went behind Adama's back, filled Starbuck's head with tales of prophecy and salvation of the human race, and convinced her to fly off to Caprica.

Sure, she told Starbuck about her beliefs, and then Starbuck acted on them. She didn't actually go around Adama, so much as she ignored his existence. My take on this is that she had the legal authority to order Adama to do what she wanted, but didn't because she hoped to avoid direct confrontation with him. Now that it is inevitable, she's more than willing. I would suggest that she didn't consult the Quorum because she didn't have time to do so. Given their reaction to her revelation of her status while in prison, it doesn't seem like she would have had much trouble supporting her - in point of fact, they seem to be willing to support her in the face of active military opposition to her authority.

To me that is clearly groundwork for a person who has decided that her vision is bigger than the system of rule and government.

Or, merely the groundwork of a person who is the chief elected official of a government asserting her authority in the face of a reactionary and recalcitrant pair of officers with autocratic tendencies.

 

[Storm Raven]

2) The cylons intend to repopulate Caprica...possibly with their new breed of hum-ylon; the New Lords of Cobol. If Six is to be believed, this is a cycle, to them. A cycle to be repeated. What if the Lords of Cobol were human-cylon half breeds? The secret of Kobol will answer much, I think.

Here's an interesting theory. Twelve shows up a lot in the series. Twelve colonies, the Quorum of Twelve, twelve snakes, twelve models of cylons, and so on.

Now, I know where the original idea for the 12 Colonies came from in the old series - the twelve tribes of Israel, and then there was the "lost" tribe (presumably those humans who came to earth). But in the current series, the Lords of Kobol seem to be modeled on the Olympian gods (Apollo and Artemis have been explicitly mentioned). There were twelve Olympian gods, and our zodiac (based on Greek mythology, after which the 12 Colonies appear to be named) has twelve signs.

I maintain (based on nothing other than a guess) that the Lords of Kobol were cylons of a previous "cycle of history". The golden era when "Gods and men lived in peace" was the end of a previous war, when the cylon plan ground to a halt, and the cylons decided to try to reload, send the humans out of Kobol to recolonize, and try again a thousand years later. I think the cylons have tried this plan before, but in the past, it has stalled at Kobol due to some "wrong" choice made by the humans, requiring a "reset".

 

[TanisFrey]

Sure, she told Starbuck about her beliefs, and then Starbuck acted on them. She didn't actually go around Adama, so much as she ignored his existence. My take on this is that she had the legal authority to order Adama to do what she wanted, but didn't because she hoped to avoid direct confrontation with him. Now that it is inevitable, she's more than willing. I would suggest that she didn't consult the Quorum because she didn't have time to do so. Given their reaction to her revelation of her status while in prison, it doesn't seem like she would have had much trouble supporting her - in point of fact, they seem to be willing to support her in the face of active military opposition to her authority.

Or members of the Quorum saw the witting on the wall that the military was/will be in charge and latached onto the first thing that might be used aginst Adama. That is why Zerak is hidding Roslin.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

...but I think the issue here is that you've already determined in the omniscient that she's wrong, and thus empirically all her actions are invalid. In the context of the story, I'm not sure if I'm ready to buy that either way. I'm pretty sure some complex things are happening, some controlled and some not.

I have not made any decision about whether Roslin will prove to be correct or not, although I am probably leaning towards her actually being the person of the prophecies. But for the arguements that have been put out there, I am suggesting that there is plenty of groundwork for someone to suggest that Roslin may become a religious zealot. Its all in the interpretation, and the only ones who know if one interpretation is right or wrong are the writers.

Two theories:

1) I still maintain that the Galactica was not meant to survive. The fleet was, but the cylons didn't want or expect Galactica to turn tail and guard the fleet. The cylons have been improvising since, but they are treating mankind like a lab rat, seeing what they do and why.

2) The cylons intend to repopulate Caprica...possibly with their new breed of hum-ylon; the New Lords of Cobol. If Six is to be believed, this is a cycle, to them. A cycle to be repeated. What if the Lords of Cobol were human-cylon half breeds? The secret of Kobol will answer much, I think.

I like your first theory and the first part of the second theory a lot. A little skeptical of the last part of the second theory.