Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 4 NSCR/8.5.05

[Elf Witch]

maybe I am getting old but I don't agree that a hero like the old Starbuck would not work today. Why is that all our new heroes have to have so many flaws? There are still good mentally healthy people out here.

But I have noticed that all the cool characters today have really bad flaws and issues. Like it is not cool to be a decent human being who does not have a chip on their shoulder or a problem getting along with people or they are some kind of addict.

Now there are characters that I think show their humanity Adama, Roslin, Tyrol and Apollo to name a few. But of course since it is today Adama and Apollo have to have issues.

Drama and conflict are what makes a show compelling to watch I am not denying this.

This is one reason that I think stops me from really getting into the show as much as I would like to. When I watched it this week I kept calling Tigh "you F**king drunken idiot" and hoping some how he would fall and hit his head in a druken stupor. And yelling at Starbuck to just shut up for once. Oh that an hoping she would get shot.

I will keep watching to see if I am right and the the real good guys are the cyclons that and to see how much they can possibly muck things up for themelves this week. Oh and to watch Richard Hatch who I have had a crush on since I was 12 years old.

 

[Steel_Wind]

I rather think the Cylons great gift is guilt-free genocide.

The nerve of these things who come back out of nowhere - 40 years later - to nuke billions and billions of people and then accuse humanity of the sin of murder.

The gall of these critters is astonishing.

I do think, however, that a monolithic Cylon conspiracy is going to unravel as less than true. There are factions within the Cylons as well. You don't make yourself flesh and stick with the Head Toasters evil schemes unchallenged.

The 12 copies are imperfect and some of them will prove disloyal. Whether it is conflicted loyalties to biological opffspring, fatal programming over human emotions (Sharon may be defective) or a misplaced zeal for religion - the Cylons are not all on the same page.

*******************

As for Starbuck, I really enjoy her character. I don't see the problems people here have over her.

Great ensemble cast which appear to be working well with one another almost from the get-go.

No Star Trek ensemble - at anytime - was as gifted, deep and developed as this group of actors. (And better scripts don't hurt either).

********************

What's up with Kobol? Is there some damper on the planet which interferes with the Cylons sensors? Dead on Kobol prevents your soul form leaving?

What kind of crap is that? God, the creator of the universe and keeper of the afterlife is able to do much - but he has trouble over a planet? I don't think so. Maybe there are dampers which prevent a Cylon from jumping back to home base if they die there. Humans? I don't think so.

The Cylons do NOT have all the answers.

 

[LightPhoenix]

maybe I am getting old but I don't agree that a hero like the old Starbuck would not work today. Why is that all our new heroes have to have so many flaws? There are still good mentally healthy people out here.

<snip>

Drama and conflict are what makes a show compelling to watch I am not denying this.

The problem is convoluted, I think.

One problem is that morally strong, mentally healthy people are extremely tough to write, without falling into a number of pitfalls. They easily come off as boring, since they don't really have meaningful conflict. Sure, you can say there's conflict, but if you know a character is strong enough to defeat it, it isn't meaningful, and thus boring. Another easy pitfall is that they become preachy. Various characters throughout Star Trek have this flaw in their writing. Finally, I also think that such traits actually dehumanize the characters when written poorly, making them harder to relate to and thus harder to like. Why? Because most people out there have issues. That doesn't mean they are morally bankrupt or mentally unstable, but no one is perfect.

Another problem is that of society, and this is two-fold. For one, people like to see a hero fail. It makes them feel better about their own inadequacies, perceived and/or real. For another, society, at least in the US, is a bit more cynical and a bit more accepting of people having issues. The internet has everyone communicating and sharing with relative anonymity, and what we're realizing is that these problems we think are unique aren't really uncommon at all. Even thirty years ago, problems like this would be swept under the rug, and it was strongly frowned upon to be talking about them. That's why OS-Starbuck is a perfect hero, and NS-Starbuck is so flawed as to barely be called a hero at all. Also, the increase in cynicism leads to an increase in snarkiness and sarcasm.

Third, a series needs to go somewhere. It needs movement, otherwise it stagnates. In a character driven drama, which I don't think you'd disagree BSG counts as, that movement has to be through the characters. A character who is morally and mentally strong and healthy doesn't have much room to grow at all. Thus, any time spent on that character is stagnating the show, because there's no growth in the character, no change. That quickly gets boring, and quickly loses viewers. Now, if NS-Starbuck grows into that hero, that's a lot more interesting that starting her off there; it's a sense of movement and growth.

Now, does this necessarily all need to be because of character flaws? Well, yes and no. it really boils down to the basic premise of the show. John Crichton on Farscape is a realtively unflawed character whose tension and growth come from other sources - being a fish out of water is the major one. This works because Farscape is not really, IMO, character driven drama - at least not nearly to the extent BSG is. Also, it works because of the premise - he's set up as not knowing anything, and being thrust into a new universe and sudden responsibility for it. Firefly is the same way - it works because Simon and to a lesser extent Book and Jayne are from different cultures than the rest of the crew, and that creates conflict. Again though, that's a function of a premise. The premise of BSG is that humans started off in a relatively equal setting; what cultural differences there are between the colonies are de-emphasized when they're discussed at all, setting them up as being minor. The vast majority of the crew is military. The conflict that arises with Baltar (as the traitor) and Rosalyn (as the civilian) works without being too character driven, because they have something to go against. Compare that to Tyrol, or Tigh, or Adama, or Starbuck, who don't have that.

All that said, I don't totally disagree with your gripe. Especially with BSG, it seems to be carried to an extreme, especially with Tigh and Starbuck. And the big conflict of military vs. civilian seems to get by far the most debate and discussion here on the boards. Certainly more than Tigh's alcoholism or Starbuck's general moral/mental suckiness. To cross shows again, Mal was one of the least interesting characters on Firefly, because the moral ambiguity tends to get old fast when there's other types of growth. Types which I don't think BSG explores enough, over these huge character flaws.

 

[LightPhoenix]

What's up with Kobol? Is there some damper on the planet which interferes with the Cylons sensors? Dead on Kobol prevents your soul form leaving?

Ugh, I wanted to go to bed after that last post, but I read this and wanted to expand.

We know the Cylons transfer their consciousness when they die. That could certainly be construed as a soul. Perhaps there's some sort of interference that prevents the Cylons from transmitting that information - thus, their souls don't leave. The Cylons seem to be under the impression the same applies to Humans, but they don't know how the Human soul works, so they take what they know (they perma-die on Kobol) and apply it to what they don't (do Humans perma-die on Kobol, or at all?).

It's the primary method by which people deal with the unknown, ripped straight from a psych textbook.

 

[Storm Raven]

We know the Cylons transfer their consciousness when they die. That could certainly be construed as a soul.

We know they say they transfer their consciousness. We don't know if this actually happens. Like, for example, we know many people say (and believe) that their soul travels to the afterlife when they die, but we don't know if this is true or not.

 

[Storm Raven]

Roslin is just a train wreck. From the point where she wanted military as police to the time she organized the theft of an important piece of military equipment needed for a vital mission to keep the human race alive. What's next for her? Incite a religious civil war and bring the destruction of many civilian lives and maybe the entire human race? She is bound to determine to go down in flames and bring the entire human race with her.

Adama is bound and determined to go down in flames. He's tried before, purposely. The main difference in their perspective is that Roslin's objective is to find earth, while Adama's objective is to fight cylons. Adama's objective is, in the end, counterproductive to the survival of the fleet, since over the long run they can't win against the cylons.

Any civil war that takes place was incited by Adama and Tigh, when they overturned the Articles of Confederation to put themselves in charge. Adama even exposed the true reason for his hissy fit that caused him to arrest the President - he doesn't like having his decisions second guessed. Tigh proved absoluty incapable of command, unable to decide for himself what to do, and using an autocratic hand to try to get his way, when it was obvious that was a bad idea. Telling people they have no voice in how their affairs are conducted is a bad idea, and Adama and Tigh went straight to that as their first option when faced with a political crisis.

This time even her most loyal subject could not stomach her actions.

Except, of course, for Apollo, Dee, Gaeta, the prison guard, the soldiers who helped her escape, the pilot who helped Apollo get the raptor, the doctor, and the sentry she talked her way past. You know, a significant collection of soldiers who couldn't stomach sweeping aside the Articles of Colonization and imposing military rule.

Plus there are the civilians who don't want to live under a military dictatorship, and refused to help Tigh use Galactica to impose one. I think Tigh and Adama are going to have to back down, and look bad in the process. They certainly seem to have no problem backing Roslin against Tigh and Adama.

 

[Fast Learner]

The problem is convoluted, I think.

<snip>

Great post, LP, well-said.

 

[Laurel]

I think Roslin is getting lots of support right now because it is her vs Tigh and his actions. I don't think if Adama had been in command this would have gone down the same way. Apollo and the others only acted when Tigh past the line of taking all rights away and not giving a glimpse that it could change back anytime soon. As Apollo implied Tigh had become a dictator. That bit about this being the start of the honeymoon and what is a dictator to do.
It would have been interesting if Adama had woken up just moments later... would Apollo have still gone with the plan? etc.
Also, I don't think Billy said or implied I agree with Tigh, but instead was stating that he doesn't agree with how Rolsin's going about it. Roslin has now acted directly against Tigh, and Billy knows her next step is to gather supporters to her against Tigh. (I keep saying Tight since he is the leader at this point.) She will divide the fleet, and if the actor who plays Billy stays on BSG then billy can also act as the brain's and caution behind whatever happens next.
Gata I think is another on the border people. He is clearly not happy with Tigh's decisions, and probably is not sure what Tigh's overzealous reaction might be. He could be waiting for D to turn herself in, or showing her he agrees with her actions. Personally, I think more the first epecially when Adama takes control again.

Callie's move: I am liking Callie more and more, though it will be intersting to see what they do with her. I think Callie is just a loose cannon, she has few friends and seems like the sheltered girl learning to deal with war. I know most of the fleat is in the same position, but I doubt she signed up for deck crew and imagined this at times becoming an upfont soldier position. She lost it in this episode, but it will be intersting to see how they charge her (if they do).

To this same info. I think Tigh's wife is just a rat. She is too unstable to lead even her own life, so she found someone with better skills and that she can manipulate. I don't think she is a Cylon though, just a bad fit for Tigh and for the fleet. I loved the fingernail scrap as she left the room.... the war between her and Adama is on. It will be interesting if she cozies up to

Boomers revelation: Is it known that Baltar passed on the information from Boomer? It seemed to me that he was keeping the information for himself, and with Six at his side the information is for a plan that is not in the humans best interests. I found it strange that at the moment when he was 'interviewing' Boomer, Six was not there. Is she starting to think he can be on his own? Since he is now a man.

Caprica: It makes sense that they would detonate the nuks in the upper atmosphere, since they were planning to inhabit the plant and it's easier to do that with what is already there. Also, if they are trying to bring about this whole children idea they need more then two people trying to get pregnant.

 

[The_Universe]

I don't think we know what Adama's overriding goal is, any more - I certainly think that in light of every episode of the show after the miniseries, it's clearly *not* just "fight the cylons" and/or "go down in flames." He's had ample opportunities to ignite that blaze of glory, and has acted with *survival* in mind in every instance.

I nearly cheered in my living room when the old man walked into Tigh's quarters. He's not perfect, but he's certainly not a megolomaniacal dictator, either.

 

[Storm Raven]

I think Roslin is getting lots of support right now because it is her vs Tigh and his actions. I don't think if Adama had been in command this would have gone down the same way. Apollo and the others only acted when Tigh past the line of taking all rights away and not giving a glimpse that it could change back anytime soon. As Apollo implied Tigh had become a dictator. That bit about this being the start of the honeymoon and what is a dictator to do.

Of course, once Adama arrested the president, what was his subsequent course of action going to be? It's hard to say that "if it were Adama nobody would have sided with Roslin", because some people clearly did. Further, it is also hard to blame subsequent events on Tigh, because once you arrest the President, what do you do next? Baltar was missing on Kobol at the time, what do you do other than declare martial law once you have decapitated your own government?

It would have been interesting if Adama had woken up just moments later... would Apollo have still gone with the plan? etc.

Apollo seemed pretty much opposed to the Commander's decision to arrest Roslin from the get-go. I don't think his father's medical status made a whole lot of difference.

Also, I don't think Billy said or implied I agree with Tigh, but instead was stating that he doesn't agree with how Rolsin's going about it. Roslin has now acted directly against Tigh, and Billy knows her next step is to gather supporters to her against Tigh. (I keep saying Tight since he is the leader at this point.) She will divide the fleet, and if the actor who plays Billy stays on BSG then billy can also act as the brain's and caution behind whatever happens next.

True, we are now going to have internal strife among the humans. Because Roslin appears to be willing to stand up for democratic rule in the face of Adama and Tigh.

Gata I think is another on the border people. He is clearly not happy with Tigh's decisions, and probably is not sure what Tigh's overzealous reaction might be. He could be waiting for D to turn herself in, or showing her he agrees with her actions. Personally, I think more the first epecially when Adama takes control again.

I tend to think the second is true. I think Tigh and Adama have bitten off much more than they can chew, and have stirred up a hornet's nest that is bigger than either of them thought it could possibly be. Adama is used to being obeyed, so is Tigh for that matter. Being defied doesn't register with them as an acceptable course of action. But they forget that the Galactica is part of a larger fleet, made up of people who aren't subject to orders.

Callie's move: I am liking Callie more and more, though it will be intersting to see what they do with her. I think Callie is just a loose cannon, she has few friends and seems like the sheltered girl learning to deal with war. I know most of the fleat is in the same position, but I doubt she signed up for deck crew and imagined this at times becoming an upfont soldier position. She lost it in this episode, but it will be intersting to see how they charge her (if they do).

I think they will charge her (destruction of military assets maybe), but the outcome seems uncertain.

To this same info. I think Tigh's wife is just a rat. She is too unstable to lead even her own life, so she found someone with better skills and that she can manipulate. I don't think she is a Cylon though, just a bad fit for Tigh and for the fleet. I loved the fingernail scrap as she left the room.... the war between her and Adama is on. It will be interesting if she cozies up to

She's pond scum at best. A relatively hot woman who latched on to something of a rising star, and uses sex to manipulate him. At worst, she's a cylon.

Boomers revelation: Is it known that Baltar passed on the information from Boomer? It seemed to me that he was keeping the information for himself, and with Six at his side the information is for a plan that is not in the humans best interests. I found it strange that at the moment when he was 'interviewing' Boomer, Six was not there. Is she starting to think he can be on his own? Since he is now a man.

I don't think he passed on the information - something of that magnitude would have rated a scene in the show if he had. Of course, he'd have had to explain how he got the information, which clearly he doesn't want to do. Interesting observation about Six.

Caprica: It makes sense that they would detonate the nuks in the upper atmosphere, since they were planning to inhabit the plant and it's easier to do that with what is already there. Also, if they are trying to bring about this whole children idea they need more then two people trying to get pregnant.

I also think that the cylons want the humans to find Kobol, find the Arrow of Apollo, and find earth. I don't know why, but the cylons seem to want the humans to succeed at that.