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D&D 5E Berserker Barbarian good or needs fix? What Fix?

Croesus

Adventurer
2. It's really damn easy to break rage.
It ends if you have not taken damage or attacked an enemy since your last turn.

Yeah, this has come up a number of times in my games. I've house-ruled that rage doesn't end if there's sufficient cause. The barbarian is restrained by a creature, but not damaged? He keeps raging at least until he breaks free. The bad guy ran through a door and barred it behind him? The barbarian keeps his rage as he tries to batter the door down. The bad guy runs around the corner and is out of sight...oh well, rage ends. It's a judgment call on my part, but it seems in keeping with the spirit of the rule.

That said, I nixed one player's idea that party members should attack him to keep his rage going. I'm not making this up - the player actually called on his party to hit him so his rage wouldn't go down (since he would be taking damage). RAW or not, that idea was vetoed.
 

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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
I'm curious how you came to the conclusion at the end of your post here, given that you say you are playing a totem barbarian. Perhaps you simply left unspoken your experience playing a berserker with which to compare?

I've DMed for a Berserker. I just consider 1st hand player experience to take precedent over DM experience when discussing why players make their characters.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Yeah, this has come up a number of times in my games. I've house-ruled that rage doesn't end if there's sufficient cause. The barbarian is restrained by a creature, but not damaged? He keeps raging at least until he breaks free. The bad guy ran through a door and barred it behind him? The barbarian keeps his rage as he tries to batter the door down. The bad guy runs around the corner and is out of sight...oh well, rage ends. It's a judgment call on my part, but it seems in keeping with the spirit of the rule.

That said, I nixed one player's idea that party members should attack him to keep his rage going. I'm not making this up - the player actually called on his party to hit him so his rage wouldn't go down (since he would be taking damage). RAW or not, that idea was vetoed.

I played a Dwarven battlerager, and a couple of times I ended up using my bonus action attack on myself to keep my rage going as I chased down enemies who were either running from me, or farther than a move away from the last enemy I killed (and for some reason I couldn't throw an axe at them - such as intervening walls or doors).

Didn't really like doing it, but I disliked losing my rage more. :/
 

Phazonfish

B-Rank Agent
I wouldn't say frenzy is a "bad ability." If someone offered it to me I'd take it. But I don't see it being as valuable as the other path level 3 abilities, due to the drawbacks and the existence of polearm master. Mindless rage at 6 is IMO the best of the level 6 options, but I don't know if it is enough to make up for the weak level 3.

This. The frenzy barb isn't bad, and if you play one you probably won't have a bad time, but that bear totem is just so appealing. The bonus action attack is nice because it is very reliable in comparison to other bonus action attack options like TWF or GWM, but its not so valuable as to warrant the limit when other options exist. Also, you don't have to frenzy every fight, but it seems unfun to not have more, even when you don't need it.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Remember it doesn't have to be a melee attack to sustain rage. It also doesn't matter if the attack has disadvantage. So if your restrained, make an attack. If nothing is in Melee ranged make a ranged attack, at disadvantage if need be.

I've played a lot of Barbarians most of whom have a 14 Dex, and I've started getting a longbow for each of them. If there's nothing for me to attack within 600 ft it's usually safe to drop out of rage anyway.

If I'm close enough I'll just chuck a handaxe or javelin to keep that rage going.

I never dump Wisdom on any Barbarian though, even a Berserker, for fear of Hold Person.
 


n0nym

Explorer
I've made it so that Frenzy costs Hit Dice (instead of causing Exhaustion) and the extra attack is part of the Attack action instead of a Bonus action.

My players love it and it still doesn't feel overpowered compared to many other builds.
 


CapnZapp

Legend
In my game almost every time Barbarians have picked Totem but the one time someone was going to pick berserker I was fine house ruling the exhaustion away and limiting it to 1 per short rest but the player still went totem.

Also it's strange that with so many people talking about how bad berserker is, we have yet to see any sort of fix for it.Well unless it is simply something that seems broken but isn't a issue in game.
Or because almost every time Barbarians have picked Totem so WotC aren't seeing much complaints for a subclass nobody plays?

My proposed quick-fix: drop the exhaustion altogether.

So what if Berserker gets a bonus action? Every competent minmax build gets a bonus action. Frenzy also doesn't work the same round you start the rage. This ability is vastly overrated.

If frenzy is free I admit it goes from "abysmal" to "really good", but what's wrong with that?

Zapp

PS.

If anything, force a Frenzied character to ALWAYS use Reckless Attack - talk about a "cost" that is both thematically appropriate and easy to use.
 

It's a conceptual problem. The berserker barbarian is conceptually the strongest warrior in the gang. He's the one that should not only be beating up monsters, but bending bars, lifting gates, and kicking in the doors. However, when he uses his basic, starting, subclass feature, he suddenly gains a substantial penalty to his strength checks for probably the rest of the day, that means he is almost certainly no longer fulfilling that role in the party. Going so frenzied that he wears out afterwards is fun and thematic. But the way it is implemented doesn't support the basic concept well.

I assume this happened due to the designers not considering how punishing exhaustion actually is, including how difficult it is to recover from without expensive magic or days of rest. You get all you hp back overnight--exhaustion is worse by far.

So it is a complete fail concept wise. Even if it were perfectly balanced mathematically from every angle, winning medals in the Balance Awards, it would still fail to represent the concept well enough for me.

But, of course, it's not balanced all that well. I had a thread about this some time ago. Basically, you are better off taking a totem barbarian and Polearm Master. Now you can use your bonus action for an extra attack every round all day, rage or no rage, and take no exhaustion from it. (No, I wasn't comparing one character with a feat against another character without one, I just don't want to reproduce all the details.) You could also take wolf totem to increase damage through your allies with no penalties and no feat needed. (You need to be able to frenzy 3/day just to be able to reliably break even with the extra damage wolf totem can do with 1-2 non-optimized melee buddies.)

Its third failure is that it doesn't function as advertised. That feature looks like something you should be using all the time. But it only works as (some people believe it is) intended to if you save it for that one big fight conveniently marked for you at the end of the adventuring day. I personally don't think that was the intent, and if I'm right it's just more mechanical balance failure on the exhaustion penalties being too harsh.

After some exhaustive (heh) analysis, I settled on a house rule of allowing you to frenzy for free a number of times per day equal to your Con mod, and then start taking exhaustion afterwards. However, the suggestion in the OP of once per short rest limit and no exhaustion is actually seeming like possibly a better one. It maintains the concept of getting worn out (you can't do it again until you rest) but without the crazy hassle of 5e exhaustion. It also hits that 3/frenzies a day (assuming 2 short rests) you need to pull of to get good numbers.

Of course, the easiest fix is just to entirely remove exhaustion from the feature. It will make berserker clearly the best at doing focused weapon damage when raging...but that is kind of their thing. Mechanically, they are probably a little unbalanced at that point. The question is if they are enough unbalanced that many people will play one instead of their desired concept because the math is so attractive. So if someone wants to play a totem barbarian conceptually, but they decided to play a berserker and refluff it as a totem barbarian, because frenzy on every rage is just sooooo good, then it is too strong. If that almost never happens, it's alright.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that I undervalued the wolf totem's feature in my assessment, as it can kick in for any ally with lower initiative in the first round of combat. With that adjustment, I think straight up removing the exhaustion from the feature (just cross off the last sentence under "Frenzy") is within acceptable balance. The question to ask ourselves is, "If the PHB had been printed without the exhaustion penalty...would anyone be batting an eye at it nowadays?" I'm assuming it would be considered a strong option, but bear totem would also still be just as popular, as would paladin, battle master, etc.
 
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