mellored
Legend
A well organized player is not 8 times faster at tracking HP and damage.
Not to mention it was just OP when you add crusaders mantle, twilight cleric, or any other AoE buff.
D&D (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?
- Thread starter mellored
- Start date
Not to mention it was just OP when you add crusaders mantle, twilight cleric, or any other AoE buff.
mellored
Legend
They did that for most of them.
Even minor elementals is a zone of difficult terrain. And kind of represents the elements attacking the same target as you. Sort of.
My thought starts with:
If you allow it at just one hit per turn: Is it a good spell? (at least a decent spell). If the answer is yes, that's what you do.
Ultimately effects that work on every attack always have the risk of abuse. Someone finds some combo with getting 6-8 attacks or something and then just blows the damage out of the water. In the spirit of 5e's "bounded accuracy", we want spells that do give some offense to the highest damage dealers, and we don't mind if it bumps up the damage of weaker damage dealers by a solid margin....we just don't want it to really ramp up the damage of characters that are already super high damage.
If you allow it at just one hit per turn: Is it a good spell? (at least a decent spell). If the answer is yes, that's what you do.
Ultimately effects that work on every attack always have the risk of abuse. Someone finds some combo with getting 6-8 attacks or something and then just blows the damage out of the water. In the spirit of 5e's "bounded accuracy", we want spells that do give some offense to the highest damage dealers, and we don't mind if it bumps up the damage of weaker damage dealers by a solid margin....we just don't want it to really ramp up the damage of characters that are already super high damage.
evilbob
Adventurer
This thread confused me quite a bit because it never explained why Conjure Minor Elemental (CME) is a problem - it was assumed everyone understood the text and the issue. Without that explanation, it is hard to see what could help fix it.
For anyone else like me: CME (4th level, concentration, 10 mins) adds +2d8 per attack you (only you) make into a zone, and increases +2d8 per upcast level. It's automatic (no additional attack rolls or saves). So casting this as a 6th level spell, for example, adds +6d8 per attack. The problem shows up when you can do something that does a lot of attacks as part of your action - like, say, Magic Missile. A level 1 MM with a 6th level CME does +6d8 x 3, or +18d8. That's more than 1.5x a 6th-level fireball (11d6). Casting MM at level 6 gets you 8 attacks - which means you're doing +48d8. That's 2 6th level spells that can't miss doing 8d4+8+48d8, or 244 damage on average. And obviously it goes up from there.
The problem in my mind is the "per attack" - that's where it gets messed up because it can get multiplied so many times. The obvious solution is to change it to only apply to "one attack per turn." The downside is that this nerfs it hard. By 7th level, all melee-focused characters are getting 2 attacks (at least) and many casters can throw two spells with a bonus action, so it seems like this spell was intended to do more like +4d8-ish on average?
My suggestion would be to change the base damage to 4d8, leave the +2d8 per spell level, and change it to "only one attack per turn." A 6th level casting still adds +8d8 to each attack over 10 mins, but this removes the massive scaling.
Anything that lowers damage or lowers the scaling damage but doesn't address the "per attack" lessens the impact, but it doesn't fix the core problem. +24d8 vs. +48d8, in my mind, is still the same problem. Limiting it to melee only encourages weird rule-manipulation in order to get as many melee attacks as possible instead of using spells like scorching ray or eldrich blast, which leads you right back into the same problem... and I feel like it goes against the spirit of the spell (to boost other spells).
Update: I didn't realize the spell also only affected yourself! Adjusted my reply, above.
For anyone else like me: CME (4th level, concentration, 10 mins) adds +2d8 per attack you (only you) make into a zone, and increases +2d8 per upcast level. It's automatic (no additional attack rolls or saves). So casting this as a 6th level spell, for example, adds +6d8 per attack. The problem shows up when you can do something that does a lot of attacks as part of your action - like, say, Magic Missile. A level 1 MM with a 6th level CME does +6d8 x 3, or +18d8. That's more than 1.5x a 6th-level fireball (11d6). Casting MM at level 6 gets you 8 attacks - which means you're doing +48d8. That's 2 6th level spells that can't miss doing 8d4+8+48d8, or 244 damage on average. And obviously it goes up from there.
The problem in my mind is the "per attack" - that's where it gets messed up because it can get multiplied so many times. The obvious solution is to change it to only apply to "one attack per turn." The downside is that this nerfs it hard. By 7th level, all melee-focused characters are getting 2 attacks (at least) and many casters can throw two spells with a bonus action, so it seems like this spell was intended to do more like +4d8-ish on average?
My suggestion would be to change the base damage to 4d8, leave the +2d8 per spell level, and change it to "only one attack per turn." A 6th level casting still adds +8d8 to each attack over 10 mins, but this removes the massive scaling.
Anything that lowers damage or lowers the scaling damage but doesn't address the "per attack" lessens the impact, but it doesn't fix the core problem. +24d8 vs. +48d8, in my mind, is still the same problem. Limiting it to melee only encourages weird rule-manipulation in order to get as many melee attacks as possible instead of using spells like scorching ray or eldrich blast, which leads you right back into the same problem... and I feel like it goes against the spirit of the spell (to boost other spells).
Update: I didn't realize the spell also only affected yourself! Adjusted my reply, above.
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mellored
Legend
It's self only.
A monk 10/druid wouldn't get it until level 17, and can only scale it to +4d8.
*5 = +10d8 per turn is quite good, but cloudkill is +5d8, save for half, over a big area. Cone of cold is 8d8 over a huge area, save for half. So it's not significantly out of line compared to other 5th level spell.
The main combo is Scorching Ray and/or (quicken) Eldritch Blast. Warlock 1/Valor Bard (Eldrich Blast) with polearm master can do 6 attacks per turn, and has 9th level slots.
GMforPowergamers
Legend
had this discussion tuesday night... 3 options
1) make it once per round the damage (some conjurations already do)
2) scale it as 1d8 per level instead of 2d8
or my preferred
3) Both 1 and 2... "your first attack that hits per turn deals" and 1d8 on the scaling.
FrogReaver
The most respectful and polite poster ever
One other alternative is you could have it function similar to spirit guardians.
mellored
Legend
I'm wrong.
It's +20s8 for a 5th level slot. Well past any other 5th level slot.
So yea, melee only will prevent it from being broken, but it will still be overpowered at the last few levels.
Magic Missile isn't affected as it isn't an attack (no attack roll). Scorching Ray works though.
evilbob
Adventurer
Thank you! I missed that. Updated my post.
This isn't the point of this thread, but I disagree. It's still an attack that does damage; the text doesn't specify an attack roll. But regardless, Scorching Ray is an example that works.
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