D&D (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?

[deadman1204]

A well organized player is not 8 times faster at tracking HP and damage.

Not to mention it was just OP when you add crusaders mantle, twilight cleric, or any other AoE buff.

Yet somehow non-summoner players can take just as long or longer

 

[TheSword]

This is untrue.

The attack action is what is define on pg 15.

Yes and until I get clarification otherwise I’m going to assume that is what is being referred to in the CME spell. Because, as I have said, every other instance (such as that used in a spell) is clearly defined as an ‘attack roll’.

Feel like we’re going round in circles here.

 

[ECMO3]

It's sorcerer 2/warlock1/Valor Bard.
Sorcerer gives you Con saves.
Warlock gives you pact of the blade.
Valor Bard let's you turn one attack into Eldritch Blast, and can pick up CME with magic secrets.
Spell Sniper boost Cha.

I haven't seen the beasts, but Moon Druid might have access to 3+ attacks.

Or just a straight wizard and use CME + Scorching Ray.

Or maybe True polymorph into a marilith?

True Polymorph is both a 9th level spell and a concentration spell, so you can't combine that with a 9th level CME.

CME+Scorching Ray requires your 8th and 9th level slots and damages the enemy on round 2 after the fight is almost half over.

 

[ECMO3]

This is why I tried to show a more reasonable example, as opposed to throwing around your entire stable of top-level spells with an oddly multi-classed character. I agree that compared to other top-tier evocation AOE spells vs. multiple targets, I think CME may not turn out too extreme in actual play. But where it completely blows away other spells is in single-target damage with spells that have a ton of attacks.

You are using a 9th level slot with concentration, you need to make numerous attacks and you need to have a way to get those attacks. It does damage and damge only. You should blow away everything else!

However if you take the SR+CME example, that is 495 damage average on round 2 IF

1. you hang on to concentration for 2 rounds
2. The target is within 15 feet and not behind full cover on round 2.
3. Niether spell is counterspelled.
4. No one casts Dispel Magic on you between the 1st and 2nd rounds
5. You burn both your 8th and 9th level spell slots
6. The target takes full damage from Fire and whatever element you choose for CME

If you get all these things right you do a tremendous amount of damage the 2nd round.

Overall there are BIG negatives with upcasting CME IMO. Mitigate those and it can get very high single target damage which is great if that is what you need to win the fight. Don't mitigate those and it is a terrible use of your highest level slot. If you need something other than damage or if your party can accomplish this without using your highest level slot(s), then again is not very powerful at all.

Is it powerful? It can be. It can be the exact right spell that makes a particular encounter trivial by using your 2 highest level slots at 17+ level ..... but then other 8th and 9th level spells will do that too in the right situation.

For example - Take your average legendary Terrasque. This is a relatively common foe for adventures at this level. I have fought them twice in play with a high level party (one time a buffed undead Terrasque) and beat both, the first relatively easily, the second undead one in a rather difficult fight that was started with low resources. Use this technique above on it and on average you do 0 damage to the terrasque and about 80 damage to the caster .... and you are probably doing it from inside the Terrasque since you need to be within 15 feet to use it and he probably swallowed you. Burning a 3rd level Haste to give your best fighter another attack is a far better use of your spells.

To make this discussion a bit more realistic - can we bring some monsters into the White Room? Can you list some of the monsters from official content that you plan to use a 9th level CME against?

Edit: Dangit, I just cannot remember that this spell is self-only!! Somehow that just doesn't make sense in my brain for an AOE spell. Let me update:

Here's an 11th level wizard casting CME as a 6th level spell and then MM as a 5th level spell on a later round:
CME adds +6d8 per attack. MM at 5th does 7 attacks, for +42d8. Total 7d4+7+42d8 = 255.5 avg damage.

To put this in perspective, casting fireball as a 6th level spell is 11d6, or an average 49.5 damage (with a save for half). It's AOE, so ideally you get 2 or 3 targets - we'll say 3 targets for ~150 damage. That's still far less than the ~255 average damage from the 5th level magic missile (that cannot miss) empowered by CME, and which you can distribute damage much more evenly and effectively.

CME does not work with MM because it is not an attack. Also you used both a 6th and a 5th level slot, 2 actions and need to hang on to concentration, so using 1 fireball to compare it to is not really a fair comparison. Two fireballs cast at 5th and 6th level that each hit 3 targets are going to do a combined 220 damage (before save).

 

[mellored]

True Polymorph is both a 9th level spell and a concentration spell, so you can't combine that with a 9th level CME

True Polymorph isn't self.
Allies exsist.

CME+Scorching Ray requires your 8th and 9th level slots and damages the enemy on round 2 after the fight is almost half over.

Pre-cast it and the fight will be over in round 1.

 

[ECMO3]

True Polymorph isn't self.
Allies exsist.

So now your party is using two 9th level concentration spells and has to hang onto both of them for this to work.

Pre-cast it and the fight will be over in round 1.

And it can be over in 1 round with imprison or wish or psychic scream without needing to precast it and only using a single 9th level slot.

As I mentioned above, can you list some of the monsters from official WOTC content that you plan to use this supposedly way OP combo against? This is a very high level party, and there are not that many monsters that are CR23+. I want to know which ones this is so OP against.

 

[mellored]

So now your party is using 2 9th level concentration spells and has to hang onto both of them.

The party ends combat turn 1, before the enemy can go.
Seems worth it.

Also, you can use a level 8 CME.

And it can be over in 1 round with imprison or wish or psychic scream without needing to precast it and only using a single 9th level slot.

Psychic Scream won't end an encounter with legendary resistance.
Wish can burn out if you try it.

Sure. This won't work against Tarrasque, but it will work against a lot more.

As I mentioned above, can you list some of the monsters from official WOTC content that you plan to use this supposedly way OP spell against? This is a very high level party, there are not that many monsters that are CR23+. I want to know which ones this will work great against.

I don't have the new monsters manual.
But 2014 ancient red dragon, with some luck and teamwork, can die before it gets to go.

 

[ECMO3]

But 2014 ancient red dragon, with some luck and teamwork, can die before it gets to go.

2014 Ancient Red Dragon takes no damage at all from Scorching Ray and you will only hit about 50% of your attacks (less if you are a Malarith). If it breathes on you your concentration will probably go down. If you fail your save against Frightful presence it will be impossible to get within 15 feet of him (5 feet for a Malarith) and if he is flying you won't get within 15 feet even if you make your save against Frightful presence.

If you win initiative and have precast CME at 9th level and can actually get within 15 feet on round 1 ..... then you will do about 195 damage on round 1 on average if those things are true. If one or more of them are untrue your most likely outcome is no damage at all.

 

[evilbob]

If you get all these things right you do a tremendous amount of damage the 2nd round.

1st round. CME is pre-cast. And FWIW I disagree with your caveats: I think they are all far less likely than "a caster casts a spell within 15 feet of an enemy." But all of this is beside the point.

CME does not work with MM because it is not an attack. Also you used both a 6th and a 5th level slot, 2 actions and need to hang on to concentration, so using 1 fireball to compare it to is not really a fair comparison. Two fireballs cast at 5th and 6th level that each hit 3 targets are going to do a combined 220 damage (before save).

I feel pretty good about my math, assumptions, and setup. If you disagree that MM doesn't work that's fine; scorching ray is technically a higher damage potential anyway.

Folks: you can nitpick the details of the example all you want, but it doesn't change anything about the underlying point. The example is just an example: I'm sure others have thought (or will) of far better ones. All I'm saying is: "here is a very simple example using a standard character in a reasonable scenario." No gimmicks, no multi-classing, no special setup required. And in this generic example, a single caster does about as much damage as the highest HP monsters in the game that are 9-13 CR above them in 1 round. It trivializes them.

Again: vs. high-level, multi-target AOE? This is not a big deal. But against a single-target? It's actually a really big deal, because nothing else comes even remotely close to this spell. You just can't do 700 damage in 1 round with 2 spells: nothing can. 9th level disintegrate: 125.5. Max-time 9th-level delayed-blast fireball: 108. Meteor Swarm: 180. These are A-tier spells and they are barely 1/4th of this spell. It's just not comparable.

I'll stop giving examples because if you still don't believe it, I'm sure I won't convince you. But I think it's pretty fair to say that this spell is probably not working as intended, and - in my opinion - the unqualified scaling is the issue.

 

[mellored]

2014 Ancient Red Dragon takes no damage at all from Scorching Ray

CME can deal multiple damage types.

and you will only hit about 50% of your attacks.

Plenty of ways to get advantage.

If it breathes on you your concentration will probably go down. If you fail your save against Frightful presence

Or it goes down before it gets a chance.

If you win initiative, have precast CME at 9th level, can actually get within 15 feet ..... then you will do about 195 damage on round 1 on average if those things are true. If one or more of them are untrue you likely do no damage.

Let me optimize a team...

• Shadow Monk, cast Darkness on you and drags you into position.
• Gloomstalker, scouts, pass without trace. Possibly someone with Arcane Eye.
• Armor Artificer (infiltration), casts haste on you, gives you enhanced arcane focus and mind sharpener, gives monk winged boots. Used Gem of Seeing to get though Darkness as needed.
• Warlock 2/sorcerer 2/fighter 2/Valor Bard 14.- Agonizing blast + Devils Sight, alert feat. Caps out at 8th level slots, but got +5 damage and advantage.

Use Alert to go after the monk, who can drag you into position.

Action, Eldritch blast + 1 weapon attack.
Nick
Action Suge, Eldritch blast + 1 weapon attack.
Haste, Eldritch Blast
Bonus Action Quicken, Eldritch Blast
= 16 EB + 3 weapon attacks, with advantage, with 1d10+5+10d8 each attack (-10 for the weapon attacks).
= 1,044.5 damage, * .75 (advantage).
= 783.375 damage (+ crits)

Vs 546 HP of the dragon.