D&D (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?

[ECMO3]

CME can deal multiple damage types.

Sure that is where the 190 damage you do actually get comes from.

Plenty of ways to get advantage.

Plenty of ways to get disadvantage too .... for example being proned from the legendary action the dragon gets.

• Shadow Monk, cast Darkness on you and drags you into position.
• Gloomstalker, scouts, pass without trace. Possibly someone with Arcane Eye.
• Armor Artificer (infiltration), casts haste on you, gives you enhanced arcane focus and mind sharpener, gives monk winged boots. Used Gem of Seeing to get though Darkness as needed.
• Warlock 2/sorcerer 2/fighter 2/Valor Bard 14.- Agonizing blast + Devils Sight, alert feat. Caps out at 8th level slots, but got +5 damage and advantage.

Action, Eldritch blast + 1 weapon attack.
Nick
Action Suge, Eldritch blast + 1 weapon attack.
Haste, Eldritch Blast
Bonus Action Quicken, Eldritch Blast
= 16 EB + 3 weapon attacks, with advantage, with 1d10+5+10d8 each attack (-10 for the weapon attacks).
= 1,044.5 damage, * .75 (advantage).
= 783.375 damage (+ crits)

Vs 546 HP of the dragon.

Try again. The Dragon has blindsight, the darkness you so carefully optimized for does not give you advantage, nor does the Gloomstalker ability help and PWT is hardly automatic for a party of 4 against a 26 passive perception, even without Blindsight.

Oh and keep in mind the Dragon has legendary actions too and after the Monk drags you into position it can AUTOMATICALLY knock you prone, deal 17 damage (a con save you probably make) AND fly 40 feet away between the time the Monk drags you into position and you take your turn.

And yeah to do this you had to come up with this white room use you needed a wierd multiclass including Warlock, Sorcerer, Valor Bard and Fighter and three other 20th level characters doing almost nothing except getting you into position to leverage this supposedly awesome spell that STILL WON'T WORK even in your optimized chosen scenario with a party optimized for it.

And keep in mind we are talking about a 20th level party in a fight that is not even "deadly" and which you should not need to use ANY 9th level spells for!

 

[evilbob]

Try again.

The thing that is weird about this response is that you're not really arguing against the underlying point. You seem to be tearing down one example to prove one detail of the example wrong, which only works if the entire point is conditioned upon the example. But this point isn't conditioned on the example, so none of that argues against the underlying generalization (that this isn't hard to set up), or the underlying point (that this damage breaks the game). If you can show that many/most 9th level spells can do anywhere near 700 damage to a single target in one round with one or two other spells to set them up: then awesome! You refuted the underlying point.

 

[ECMO3]

The thing that is weird about this response is that you're not really arguing against the underlying point. You seem to be tearing down one example to prove one detail of the example wrong, which only works if the entire point is conditioned upon the example. But this point isn't conditioned on the example, so none of that argues against the underlying generalization (that this isn't hard to set up), or the underlying point (that this damage breaks the game). If you can show that many/most 9th level spells can do anywhere near 700 damage to a single target in one round with one or two other spells to set them up: then awesome! You refuted the underlying point.

I asked to provide any example where it was OP. What I originally said was:

Is it powerful? It can be. It can be the exact right spell that makes a particular encounter trivial by using your 2 highest level slots at 17+ level, but then other 8th and 9th level spells will do that too in the right situation. To make this discussion a bit more realistic - can we bring some monsters into the White Room? Can you list some of the monsters from official content that you plan to use a 9th level CME against?

The premise is this is an awesome OP ability. Someone should be able to provide at least one example of a Monster it would be so OP against .... and there probably is one or more, but it is not going to work that well against most monsters at that level and in that respect it is not going to be OP in play IMO.

If it works awesome on one or two different monsters great (although I can't think of what those are), but that is fundamentally different than suggesting it is way OP.

 

[mellored]

Try again. The Dragon has blindsight, the darkness you so carefully optimized for does not give you advantage

Fair. Though it's still a good tactic for many.

1,044.5 *0.5 = 522.25 (+ crits).

So get a crit, and you should be good. Or the rest of your party may need to do something.

nor does the Gloomstalker ability help

And all rangers now get Blindsight at level 18. So he can join in the darkness party.

Or any other way of scouting.

But Gloomstalker fits the party theme better IMO.

and PWT is hardly automatic for a party of 4 against a 26 passive perception, even without Blindsight.

5 Dex + 12 Expertise in stealth + 10 PWT = +27 stealth.
So yea, automatic wins.

Oh and keep in mind the Dragon has legendary actions too and after the Monk drags you into position it can AUTOMATICALLY knock you prone, .

So stand up.
Prone isn't a problem.

deal 17 damage (a con save you probably make) AND fly 40 feet away between the time the Monk drags you into position and you take your turn.

It can't fly as a reaction, and has +0 initiative.

It is possible (though unlikely) it will get a turn to go and blast you. But that's what Mind Sharpener is for. And the monk can ready a dash when needed.

The dragons best bet is to hit the Artificer to get Haste to drop, though she has Flash of Genius + Con saves + Warcaster.

And yeah to do this you had to come up with a wierd multiclass including Warlock, Sorcerer, Valor Bard and Fighter and 3 other characters doing almost nothing but getting you into position to leverage this.

3 other characters who still have all their actions and the majority of their spells / resources.

I'm only using a scout, 2 pre-cast concentration slots (Gloomstalker can swap to hunterd mark after initive), and a monk bonus action.

Maybe add a Trickster cleric with Bless as the 5th.

And we are talking about a 20th level party in a fight that is not even "deadly" and which you should not need to use ANY 9th level spells for!

It is deadly for a party of 4. And I am using a level 8 spell. Multi classed to much to get 9th.

And this party at level 16 still has a solid chance of killing the dragon before it goes.


And keep in mind, CME is a 10 minute spell. So you can possibly get multiple encounters out of it. Just a EB + quicken EB should be able to take out half the enemies.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes and until I get clarification otherwise I’m going to assume that is what is being referred to in the CME spell. Because, as I have said, every other instance (such as that used in a spell) is clearly defined as an ‘attack roll’.

Feel like we’re going round in circles here.

There’s no basis for your assumption that ‘any attack you make’ refers to the attack action instead of ‘any attack you make’.

 

[mellored]

using your 2 highest level slots at 17+ level, but then other 8th and 9th level spells will do that too in the right situation.

Hence why I switched to using Eldritch Blast. So you can do this repeatedly.

You should be able to 1-2 turn most of the encounters in the day.

 

[ECMO3]

Hence why I switched to using Eldritch Blast. So you can do this repeatedly.

You should be able to 1-2 turn most of the encounters in the day.

I am not saying the CME is bad, but it is extremely situational at the level you could do this, in a large part due to the short range and the kind of abilities and legendary actions a single boss creature is going to have and that makes it not OP.

At 20th level you can 1-2 round most encounters anyway. I played tonight, we are playing with five 17th level characters in a published WOTC campaign. One out of those 7 fights made it to round 3. Here are the 7 fights we had:

The first fight took 2 rounds, but we had it won in 1 (3 Erinyes, 2 Vroks and a Goristo). We used one 8th level spell (Tsunami) and 1 first level spell (cause Fear) and that ended the encounter .... it just took two rounds to kill the Demons and seriously damage the Erinyes who we were actually allied with. We then threatened and scared off the damaged Erinyes with a 36 Intimidation check (they would have died in another round certainly). We actually had the "set up time" you talked about in this one but we did it without using a 9th level slot and to be honest could have done it easily without using an 8th level slot. Our party took no damage at all.

The 2nd through 5th fights were arena fights as part of a plot hook. It was 3 party members fighting in an Arena (we got short rests between each of these). We were fighting these with a Fighter11/Barbarian6, Paladin6/Sorcerer11 and a Rogue7/Bard5/Warlock5

The 2nd fight was against 3 Barlgura and they did not even get a turn.

The 3rd fight was against a Purple Worm and we killed it on the 1st turn of the second round (it did get a turn and did some minor damage to the Rogue and Paladin/Sorc).

The 4th was 2 flying Iron Golems that took 2 rounds and signficantly damaged the Paladin/Sorc.

The 5th fight was against a Red Abashi and two Horned Devils. We ended the fight halfway through the 2nd round. We brought the Abashi to near 0 and he capitulated on his turn.

---- 3 of the 5 party members got the equivalent of a long rest here from a spa in the adventure ---

The 6th fight (with all 5 party members) was against 2 Pit Fiends. It ended in 2 rounds with one of them dead and one of them banished and we left.

The 7th fight is ongoing when we stopped the game for the night. We are fighting a single Tiefling boss and she has hit us pretty hard. We just finished the 2nd round. Two of us are near death but so is she. She will almost certainly die in the first two turns of the third round unless she downs one of us with a legendary action .... in which case she will die a little later in the third round. Also she would shred someone with CME standing right next to her with legendary actions and a bonus action stun effect with a 23 save. She did kill my silence spell and nearly downed me in 2 rounds. If I had 9th level spells and was concentrating on CME I would have lost that too with the same effect (wasted first action) but using a much higher level slot.

Above are 7 fights from a published adventure at 17th level, which is the lowest level you can cast 9th level spells, and this tactic would not have been OP or really even useful in any of those. In the ones it would have worked in, we easily won with less resources.

FWIW my character is a Whispers Bard 5/Hexblade Warlock 5/Swashbuckler Rogue 7 using the 2014 rules and as of right now she has used one 3rd level pact slot, 2 2nd level slots, 2 1st level slots, she has her hexblade curse on the boss we are fighting. So she is not even really low on resources after all of those fights.

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[ECMO3]

Fair. Though it's still a good tactic for many.

It is extremely situational.

I am not saying the CME is bad, but it is extremely situational at the level you could do this, in a large part due to the short range and the kind of abilities and legendary actions a single boss creature is going to have and that makes it not OP.

And all rangers now get Blindsight at level 18. So he can join in the darkness party.
5 Dex + 12 Expertise in stealth + 10 PWT = +27 stealth.

So yea, automatic wins.

But the monster you are fighting can see right through it too.

And you have 4 party members in your example and you have to pass it with all of them (or half of them if you use the group check rules)

And you need to be obscured to even get a check, which you are not even inside the darkness.

So stand up.
Prone isn't a problem.

Except he is 55 feet away and it costs half your movement to stand up.

It can't fly as a reaction, and has +0 initiative.

It is not a reaction. It can fly as a legendary action between the Monk's turn and your turn while also knocking you prone and damaging you with the same Legendary action (and causing a concentration save). This is before you even get a turn. Most boss enemies you are going to fight at this level are going to have legendary actions and being within 15 feet is going to hurt even if they can't move away.

The boss I was fighting tonight had a DC23 dex save legendary action that was an AOE that does around 40 damage. That means sure - beat her initiative and get drug by another PC to within 15 feet and then you get to save and get to save again for concentration. You might make it or you might have lost your 9th level slot before doing anything with it (and also lost the dragging guys action) .... and she can do that between every single turn. Oh and if it gets to her turn she can bonus action AOE stun you on a 23 save and finally all attacks against her are at disadvantage (this is a from a published WOTC campaign).

Most bosses are going to get these kinds of things at this level. That is why I asked to provide an example of monsters where this will likely to work. There are not many. When you find one it is going to be truely OP, but there are other spells equally as OP against certain monster (Forcecage anyone).

It is possible (though unlikely) it will get a turn to go and blast you. But that's what Mind Sharpener is for. And the monk can ready a dash when needed.

If the Monk drags you within 15 feet it will damage you. It is a 25 DC dex save for it not to damage and the initiative count does not matter. It can be worse though. If another PC goes between you and the Monk it can attack you after the Monk's turn (likely hitting and causing a concentration save) and then use another legendary to prone you damage you and move 40 feet away after the other PCs turn.

Moreover breathing on the caster will likely end his concentration on CME, even with absorb elements.

The dragons best bet is to hit the Artificer to get Haste to drop, though she has Flash of Genius + Con saves + Warcaster.

Maybe he will do that on his turn, but it is not his turn it is the CME caster's turn and he is prone and 55 feet away from the dragon at the start of his turn, had to make a concentration save, and the Dragon is flying and up in the air unless this whiteroom is in a situational scenario where he can't fly.

3 other characters who still have all their actions and the majority of their spells / resources.

The Monk used his action to drag you up to the Dragon I thought? In any case sure, but are we tallking about 4 20th level PCs bringing down an Ancient Red Dragon (fairly easy) or about CME being way OP against an ancient Red Dragon (I don't see that at all)?

It is deadly for a party of 4. And I am using a level 8 spell. Multi classed to much to get 9th.

And this party at level 16 still has a solid chance of killing the dragon before it goes.

The party is level 20, not 16 in the example you game and they have a chance of killing the Dragon before its turn, but not before it "goes" because it "goes" with a Legendary action after the first person in initiative regardless of who that is.

They do have a small chance of killing the dragon but almost no chance of cashing in on CME and if 2 PCs use actions to try to land CME they have almost no chance of killing the Dragon either.

And keep in mind, CME is a 10 minute spell. So you can possibly get multiple encounters out of it. Just a EB + quicken EB should be able to take out half the enemies.

If you can get within 15 feet of an enemy it will be useful against and manage to hang on to concentration sure .... but that is not going to happen a lot.

 

[TheSword]

There’s no basis for your assumption that ‘any attack you make’ refers to the attack action instead of ‘any attack you make’.

I’ve told you the basis… a couple of times now.

We have two meanings for the word Attack in D&D. The Attack action (with a weapon or unarmed strike) described on pg 15 and pg 361 (the glossary) and the general process to hit and damage creatures described on pg 25. Therefore there are two possible interpretations of the spell.

In my opinion the attack action is the more common meaning - partly because the glossary entry refers to Attack as the action. I am also of the opinion that IF the spell included spell attacks like Hex and Bless do, it would clarify that by using ‘Attack Roll’ like Hex, Bless and all other spells do apart from this one. It doesn’t. I also have a hard time believing that the spell would add the volume of damage it does to spells that casually spit out multiple attack rolls like scorching ray. All this leads me to conclude it doesn’t apply to all attack rolls. Instead to the attack action - the other meaning for word attack. I totally accept that it isn’t conclusive, I’m choosing one of two possible interpretations until it inevitably gets clarified.

I mean if you want to choose the option that expands the spells remit as far as possible then complain about the effect as being too good that’s up to you. I made my choice and I sleep just fine.

 

[Zardnaar]

This spell is about as broken as Scorching Ray was in 2003.

It requires set up and it's only damage. Fights tend to last 2-3 rounds.

Why blow all your higher level slots on only damage vs updating hold person, monster or whatever?

And it's only good theoretically at very high levels.