D&D 5E (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?

[ECMO3]

Spell sniper avoids disadvantage in melee

And it is situational you have to have that feat, especially since it is relatively weak and not a common feat at all ... and you need to be a Valor Bard ... and have friends helping you out to land your spell ... and have fighter levels for Action Surge .... and have someone cast haste on you .... and precast CME ....

VERY, VERY Situational.

Better start counting feats too in the whiteroom. Your Bard 14 with 3 other multiclasses only has 3 feats, and I guess one is spell sniper!

 

[ECMO3]

I throw high level threats at my party on the regular.... but a CR24+ monster at a party of level 10 is a HUGE last boss, not 4 encounters in a row in a dungeon, try again with CR 11-14 monsters now

We are talking about upcasting CME at 9th level, which is a 17th level party minimum (20th level with all the caveats and multiclass that are getting thrown around).

A party of 4 at 17th level needs CR23 to meet the "Deadly" threshold, and at 20th level even CR23 is not deadly for a party of 4. And keep in mind RAW "Deadly" is not really very deadly in play beyond level 3.

10th level is a completely different discussion. TBH the spell is far more effective at 10th level upcast to 5th level against a CR14 level foe than it will be at 20th level upcast to 9th level against a CR24 level foe.

 

[ECMO3]

Considering how rarely I've made it past level 10, I'm not worried. But I still think it needs changed.

I finished a level 20 campaign today. I am in a level 17 game I am playing on Mondays. In the last 2 years I played 6 campaigns all the way to 20th level.

You say it will break the game at level 15+ when by your own admission you have very little experience at those levels.

Unlike a lot of PHB 2024, CME was actually playtested. There are a ton of things that made it into 2024 that weren't playtested and some of those are causing problems. But CME is not one of these, everyone got to try it out and those that did provided feedback.

Face it, you just don't have a lot of experience at high level play, don't understand the rules that commonly come into play at high level (like legendary actions), never playested this spell at high level and are theorycrafting how this will work without a good base of experience playing at the level you are talking about.

I think the people who regularly play high level games often are those best positioned to understand how effective or broken this spell will be in a high-level game.

 

[ECMO3]

Action surge / haste takes the attack action.
-Valor Bard replaces 1 attack with EB.

It is true you can cast a cantrip with your Haste attack if you are a Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight, but you can only get one attack. The wording in the new Haste spell was changed and it is now specific to the number of attacks. They took out the word "weapon" and the limit is now on the number of attacks you can make, not the type of attacks you can make. You also can't use Cleave or Nick with the new version of Haste because they both require another attack.

So if you are 20th level and you use your Valor Bard haste action to use the attack action and replace your attack with Firebolt you get one attack and do 4d10 damage if you hit.

If you are 20th level and use your Valor Bard haste action to use the attack action and replace your attack with Eldritch Blast you get 1 attack and do 1d10 damage if you hit. You can't make the other 3 attacks you normally would with Eldritch Blast because there is a hard limit on the number of attacks with the Haste spell.

They actually changed the wording of Haste to make this specific. It now says you get "one attack only". Being the specific use of Haste, that is a hard limit that nothing can change and if you cast Eldritch Blast with it you can't get more than one attack regardless of your level.

 

[Zardnaar]

I finished a level 20 campaign today. I am in a level 17 game I am playing on Mondays. In the last 2 years I played 6 campaigns all the way to 20th level.

You say it will break the game at level 15+ when by your own admission you have very little experience at those levels.

Unlike a lot of PHB 2024, CME was actually playtested. There are a ton of things that made it into 2024 that weren't playtested and some of those are causing problems. But CME is not one of these, everyone got to try it out and those that did provided feedback.

Face it, you just don't have a lot of experience at high level play, don't understand the rules that commonly come into play at high level (like legendary actions), never playested this spell at high level and are theorycrafting how this will work without a good base of experience playing at the level you are talking about.

I think the people who regularly play high level games often are those best positioned to understand how effective or broken this spell will be in a high-level game.

It's why I don't care about it. Stuff I've seen at higher level. At best you blow some high level slots and kill a being.

Boss fight potentially useful. Not saying the spells bad and direct damage like healing in combat is underwhelming most of the time.

2014 banishnet upcast is a bigger concern most of the time imho and that's a basic thing.

It might be OP but I font think it is but I'll have to see it in play tbh.

In my D&D redesign I'm just letting direct damage spells scale again they're roughly 3.5. Remember that really broken warmage in 3.5?

 

[mellored]

Teamwork is very situational and party dependant. Not a little bit situationa VERY SITUATIONAL, especially when it comes to teamwork leveraging other characters abilities

Tell that to all the people complaining about dragging a cleric around the battlefield.

Maybe if you play adventures league, but in all my home games people coordinate their characters. If someone wants to play a shadow monk, they will ask the others to take Blind Fighting or Devils Sight.

This is on page 331-332 of the PHB .... or are we now for some reason fighting inside a teleportation circle?

Dimension Door is on page 233.

You precast a 9th level spell to get 12d8 damage on one attack - that is how the rules work.

I precast at 8th level, for 10d8.
I multiclassed too much to get 9th level.

You can use Scorching Ray and get 9th level. But I prefer EB.

Also she can only use this once per turn, but if you have 2 PCs like you said, that is on every single turn of combat because there are only 3 turns in a round.

The 2nd PC readied Dimension Door for my turn.

Before we discuss this any more polease provide anything suggesting that they will not get legendary actions before their turn.

1. It's my turn.
2. I approach them with 15', in any number of ways. (Readied Dimension Door, Phantom Steed, walking out of a bush with Haste, following the barbarian who rushed).
3. I kill them.
4. End of my turn, nothing happens because they are dead.

For Vecna.

1. It's my turn.
2. I approach with 15'.
3. I use EB once.
4. Reaction teleports 30'.
5. I use the extra speed I have from Haste / Phantom Steed to move closer. Longstrider also doesn't require concentration. Maybe some magic boots.
6. Action surge, quicken, and haste to kill her.
7. End of my turn nothing happens because she is dead.

She could escape Scorching Ray, but not EB.

 

[mellored]

Better start counting feats too in the whiteroom. Your Bard 14 with 3 other multiclasses only has 3 feats, and I guess one is spell sniper!

17 Cha, 16 Con, 14 Dex
Starting Sorcerer for Con saves.
Spell Sniper
Warcaster
And... Inspiring Leader.

Elemental Adept is possible too.
As is starting fighter for heavy armor.

 

[mellored]

Unlike a lot of PHB 2024, CME was actually playtested

CME changed in the very last playtest, and people where excited that it wouldn't drag the game down with 8 minions.

It had the least amount of playtest.

 

[mellored]

It is true you can cast a cantrip with your Haste attack if you are a Valor Bard or Eldritch Knight,

Also Bladesinger.
Also EK is limited to wizard spells, so couldn't use Eldritch Blast.

They actually changed the wording of Haste to make this specific. It now says you get "one attack only".

By that logic, you would not be able to use Acid Splash, Minor Illusion, Light or many other cantrips.

So I disagree.


And I really don't understand why your so against nerfing it. Do you think it will hurt WotC's reputation for perfectly balanced games or something?

 

[Zardnaar]

Tell that to all the people complaining about dragging a cleric around the battlefield.

Maybe if you play adventures league, but in all my home games people coordinate their characters. If someone wants to play a shadow monk, they will ask the others to take Blind Fighting or Devils Sight.


Dimension Door is on page 233.

I precast at 8th level, for 10d8.
I multiclassed too much to get 9th level.

You can use Scorching Ray and get 9th level. But I prefer EB.

The 2nd PC readied Dimension Door for my turn.

1. It's my turn.
2. I approach them with 15', in any number of ways. (Readied Dimension Door, Phantom Steed, walking out of a bush with Haste, following the barbarian who rushed).
3. I kill them.
4. End of my turn, nothing happens because they are dead.

For Vecna.

1. It's my turn.
2. I approach with 15'.
3. I use EB once.
4. Reaction teleports 30'.
5. I use the extra speed I have from Haste / Phantom Steed to move closer. Longstrider also doesn't require concentration. Maybe some magic boots.
6. Action surge, quicken, and haste to kill her.
7. End of my turn nothing happens because she is dead.

She could escape Scorching Ray, but not EB.

D&D is best as a team game. Playing with Randoms/newbs it's not guaranteed.