D&D (2024) Best fix for conjure minor elemental?

[GMforPowergamers]

We are talking about upcasting CME at 9th level, which is a 17th level party minimum (20th level with all the caveats and multiclass that are getting thrown around).

A party of 4 at 17th level needs CR23 to meet the "Deadly" threshold, and at 20th level even CR23 is not deadly for a party of 4. And keep in mind RAW "Deadly" is not really very deadly in play beyond level 3.

10th level is a completely different discussion. TBH the spell is far more effective at 10th level upcast to 5th level against a CR14 level foe than it will be at 20th level upcast to 9th level against a CR24 level foe.

no that is NOT what I am talking about...

This is why powergamers breaking games isn't a good example... Just like my druid problem in 3.5, the problem is if you pick things for fun without knowing combos can it be a problem... and yes this can.

as you see I clearly started the post you responded to saying NOT trying to break just useing it as intended was bad and

a 10th level bard or wizard or druid

at 10th level... technically 7th for 2 out of 3 classes but upping it 1 level to 5th is where the problems REALLY start.

(and I HAVE to include bard cause 2/3 of bards will have either wizard or druid lists) can have more then 1 way to make multi attacks...

so again at 10 level casting the spell at 5th level and having 2 or more attacks...

you will also have 5th level spell slots... so twice per day you can cast a spell that for 10 minutes grants +4d8 to multi attacks per round... lets say 2 (so 2 sword swings on a weapon based bard or bladesinger or multi attacking druid) that is already 8d8... on round 1 you cast CME and do 0 and round 2 you deal your normal damage +8d8... about on par if you had cast a fireball, the problem lies in round 3.

I have not seen CME in play yet, BUT I will say I have seen 10 min concentration buffs in dungeons last for 3 fights each of witch is 3+ rounds long... so lets say 10 rounds between the 3 fights, that is 9x 4d8 bonus damage (9 cause 1 of those 10 rounds is casting)

a buff that adds +36d8 to damage that can all be to single boss targets is above the norm and needs to consider some nerfing... this is without power gaming.

a buff that adds +36d8 to damage that can all be to single boss targets is above the norm and needs to consider some nerfing... this is without power gaming. at 9th or 10th level...

 

[ECMO3]

Tell that to all the people complaining about dragging a cleric around the battlefield.

Don't have a Cleric in my 17th level campaign and don't have one in the new campaign I am starting.

Maybe if you play adventures league, but in all my home games people coordinate their characters. If someone wants to play a shadow monk, they will ask the others to take Blind Fighting or Devils Sight.

Sure, situational to your home games and some others.

1. It's my turn.
2. I approach them with 15', in any number of ways. (Readied Dimension Door, Phantom Steed, walking out of a bush with Haste, following the barbarian who rushed).
3. I kill them.

Ok you just don't understand the rules.

Dimension Door: You can only concentrate on one spell at a time, so you can't ready dimension door while concentrating on CME. This is basic stuff most players come across around level 3.

Haste: If someone casts Haste on you then the enemy gets a legendary action after that persons turn and before your turn!

If you follow the Barbarian the enemy gets a legendary action after the Barbarian's turn and before your turn!

Phantom Steed is the only one of these that could possibly work to prevent him from taking a legendary action and if then steed takes any damage atg all the spell ends. For it to work you need to precast Phantom Steed, precast CME, win initiative and have the steed take no damage between when you precast PS and have combat start with the enemy within movement range of the steed. How often is all that going to happen? Almost never or more accurately, never in any of the thousands of sessions of D&D I have played. Also the steed is large, meaning things like allies in your way are going to slow you down.

For Vecna.

1. It's my turn.
2. I approach with 15'.
3. I use EB once.
4. Reaction teleports 30'.
5. I use the extra speed I have from Haste / Phantom Steed to move closer. Longstrider also doesn't require concentration. Maybe some magic boots.

He damages you with his reaction

Also Vecna can outrange your Steeds movment and kill it automatically before you even move if he wins initiative.

This is almost never going to work.

How many combats have you played in against CR26 foes? I am thinking not many at all.

 

[ECMO3]

17 Cha, 16 Con, 14 Dex

I thought you had alert feat so you could move initiative around and be more likely to win it .... you need to make that starting Charisma a 15.

Starting Sorcerer for Con saves.

And any time you don't win initiative against an enemy that can frighten you (which is almost all of them at CR 23+) you are going to be frightened and won't be able to get within 15 feet because it is impossible to make a Wisdom save.

Then there is Vecna who can hit you with Dominate Monster if he gets a turn for any reason and with an automatic failure failure on the save, you are going to shred your party with CME and Warcaster. He is not the only one that can do that, just the only one I can think of immediately.

 

[ECMO3]

Also Bladesinger.
Also EK is limited to wizard spells, so couldn't use Eldritch Blast.

By that logic, you would not be able to use Acid Splash, Minor Illusion, Light or many other cantrips.

That is debatable whether you can RAW. You can use "only one attack" though, not 4.

Further if your argument is 4 beams of EB is "only one attack" because it used as part of the attack action then it is "only one attack" for purposes of CME damage too when used as part of the attack action. 4 beams of Eldritch Blast as part of the attack action can't be "one attack" for one spell and "four attacks" for another spell.

And I really don't understand why your so against nerfing it. Do you think it will hurt WotC's reputation for perfectly balanced games or something?

I don't care if it is nerfed, I am justy saying you are wrong when you say it is way OP. It is less OP than Forcecage.

 

[Zardnaar]

Derp forgot about martial bards.

Might be really good at say level 10 potentially.
Otherwise it might be a soft buff to direct damage kinda sucking.

 

[mellored]

Dimension Door: You can only concentrate on one spell at a time, so you can't ready dimension door while concentrating on CME.

Right. Forgot readying a spell takes concentration.

So Dimension Door 70' away.
They DO get 1 legendary action, but I don't know if any of them would be useful at that range. Vecna's reaction doesn't trigger.
I walk up and kill them.

For it to work you need to precast Phantom Steed, precast CME, win initiative and have the steed take no damage between when you precast PS and have combat start with the enemy within movement range of the steed. How often is all that going to happen?

How good are you at scouting?

Also the steed is large, meaning things like allies in your way are going to slow you down.

You told me I shouldn't have any allies. Or do allies only count if they get in the way?

One guy who cast buffs and dimension door doesn't need to move any closer.

He damages you with his reaction

10 damage off my 22 THP (inspiring leader).
And then I roll a DC 10 concentration save with +9 and advantage.

Also Vecna can outrange your Steeds movment and kill it automatically before you even move if he wins initiative.

120' EB +30' spell sniper is more than her 120'.
Obviously i won't get CME, but I can kite too.


But I like how your argument is now "CME isn't broke because no one can get within 15' of legendary creatures."



Oh, also... Tasha's Bubbling Cauldron, for Necrotic Resistance potions.

96 damage/ 2 /2 = DC 24 concentration checks.
Vs +9 and advantage = 51% chance to maintain concentration even in the worst case.

Can I assume a Ring of Protection or any other magic item?

 

[mellored]

I thought you had alert feat so you could move initiative around and be more likely to win it .... you need to make that starting Charisma a 15.

Or be a human.

Then there is Vecna who can hit you with Dominate Monster if he gets a turn for any reason and with an automatic failure failure on the save, you are going to shred your party with CME and Warcaster.

So you agree that CME should be nerfed?

But good point about Warcaster. Getting Command Flee on an adjacent enemy will do quite a lot of damage too.

 

[ECMO3]

Right. Forgot readying a spell takes concentration.

So Dimension Door 70' away.
They DO get 1 legendary action, but I don't know if any of them would be useful at that range. Vecna's reaction doesn't trigger.
I walk up and kill them.

How good are you at scouting?

Not good enough to avoid being seen by Vecna who has Truesight to 120 feet and actions that can reach out to that range as well.

You told me I shouldn't have any allies. Or do allies only count if they get in the way?

I did not say you should not have any allies, I said relying on your allies to make your spell work is highly situational, especially when you are expecting them to give up their own actions or higher level spells.

One guy who cast buffs and dimension door doesn't need to move any closer.

But at the level you are at who is that and what is the opportunity costs and you do need to get close for the best buffs in the game.

Take a Cleric for example, the best general Cleric spell buff in the game is Holy Aura and the best situational one is Antimagic Field. The Cleric does need to get close to do either of these and there is an opportunity cost to not doing that.

You are asking a Druid not to cast Shapechange so you can make CME work.

120' EB +30' spell sniper is more than her 120'.
Obviously i won't get CME, but I can kite too.

Yeah but you are doing minimal damage when you do.

But I like how your argument is now "CME isn't broke because no one can get within 15' of legendary creatures."

That is not my entire argument. It isn't broke because you have to be within 15 feet and generally have to hold on to concentration for 2 rounds.

96 damage/ 2 /2 = DC 24 concentration checks.
Vs +9 and advantage = 51% chance to maintain concentration even in the worst case.

Yes, if you have proficiency and Warcaster most of the time you will hang on to concentration for your precast CME but also most of the time you will be Frightened and unable to move closer to Vecna .... and your steed will be dead requiring you to use extra movement to dismount.

Can I assume a Ring of Protection or any other magic item?

Sure, but keep in mind like feats and ASIs, these are limited and you only have 3 attunement.

You are creating a house of cards here with specific feats, specific multiclass combinations, specific allies and the actions they will take, betting the farm on being able to scout Vecna or another legendary creature and precast a host of spells, all to possibly cash in for a ton of damage. These choices are specifically to make something workable at level 18+ but you will have to play the first 18 levels with these compromises.

There are times it will be effective and for that reason it is probably worth getting, but it will not be generally effective at vey high level like you envision and other spells will generally be more effective against those enemies.

 

[mellored]

I did not say you should not have any allies, I said relying on your allies to make your spell work is highly situational, especially when you are expecting them to give up their own actions or higher level spells.

You have a much different teamwork experience than I do.

You are asking a Druid not to cast Shapechange so you can make CME work.

Can Shapechange kill Vecna on one turn?

Yeah but you are doing minimal damage when you do.

I am doing huge damage compared to the Barbarian.

Who apparently takes 2 rounds to get next to the enemy.

Yes, most of the time you will hang on to concentration for your precast CME but also most of the time you will be frightened and unable to move closer to Vecna .... and your steed will be dead.

Counter Charm. It doesn't suck now.
And I'm not using my reaction for anything else.

Sure, but keep in mind like feats and ASIs, these are limited and you only have 3 attunement.

Then I'll grab Boots of Speed (attuned)
Candle of Invocation (Attuned)
Rod of the Pact keeper (attuned)
Potions of Speed.
Sentinel Shield

And I cast longstrider, cause why not.

So 160' of movement even if my steed dies.
Haste without concentration.
Advantage on Initiative.
Advantage on attacks.

Now I don't need any allies to kill Vecna. Just a few round of prep.

 

[ECMO3]

You have a much different teamwork experience than I do.

I think a more accurate statement is I have a more diverse experience than you do because I play more games and play with players worldwide.

I am doing huge damage compared to the Barbarian.

In most boss fights at 17th level plus the Barbarian is going to do more damage than you are going to do with CME.

Who apparently takes 2 rounds to get next to the enemy.

Ranged attacks exist.

Counter Charm. It doesn't suck now.

That does nothing for your dead horse and does not mean you pass your save (although you have a better chance)

And I'm not using my reaction for anything else.

Then I'll grab Boots of Speed (attuned)
Candle of Invocation (Attuned)
Rod of the Pact keeper (attuned)
Potions of Speed.
Sentinel Shield

Ok don't forget dismounting your dying phantom steed takes half of your movement.

And I cast longstrider, cause why not.

Maybe because Vecna is going to kill you while you are buffing with Phantom Steed, Longstrider and CME.

So 160' of movement even if my steed dies.

80 after you dismount him.

Now I don't need any allies to kill Vecna. Just a few round of prep.

It is not going to work most of the time in play. The set up is way too long and if Vecna is not dead or imobilized in 3 rounds your party probably is.