D&D 5E Best Non-GWM, Non-SS, Non-PM, Non-CE Damagers

[Cap'n Kobold]

Yea. How do those assumptions really change who the best damage dealer is?

Because they will increase general party power to a large extent, and also shift the balance of damage capability severely towards casters and other long-rest based classes.

More combat rounds gives the classes with less nova capabilities, but more at-will damage a chance to catch up: Initially the nova classes will open up a large lead by throwing high-level spells, burning sorcery points etc. Once they are down to cantrips or similar, the less-nova classes will start to catch up. If the adventuring day is so short that the nova classes aren't forced into using their lesser, at-will attacks then the other classes aren't going to be able to catch up, and thus will be much lower damage-dealers.

Similarly with removing short rests. If a DM runs no short rests without adjusting anything else then classes that recover resources on short rests are going to be operating with less than half of the resources that they are balanced around. Thus the long-rest-based classes are going to appear to be much better damage-dealers than they would be with the original set of assumptions.

 

[FrogReaver]

Except booming blade doesn't prevent anyone from moving... but let's get back on topic.

Does anyone feel like explaining to me how you guys come up with the damage per round calculations? What's assumed based on chance to hit, etc. Or just point me to a thread that already explains this.

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There is no one set formula for DPR. They all include come combination of average damage * chance to hit * number of attacks. In my thread since we are looking at daily DPR we can multiply our at "will DPR" by the number of rounds we expect to be in combat (unless we plan to do something else for a few turns in the combat in which case we take out the damage here for those turns) and then add short rest and long rest abilities to that total (generally just taking the average damage they can do weighted with their chance to do that damage) and after all that is added up we divide again by the number of rounds we are in combat for the day. Oh and often people exclude critical hits from their calculations for ease of calculation because most builds gain relatively little from crits. If you are making a build around crits or a build that uses a lot of damage dice on each attack then you probably should factor in crits into your comparisons.

Feel free to ask any other questions.

Oh and in case you are wondering, precision attack can be thought of as giving +3 attack as optimal use of that is very close to granting an effective +3 attack over 24 rounds of combat and 2 short rests.

 

[FrogReaver]

Except booming blade doesn't prevent anyone from moving... but let's get back on topic.

Does anyone feel like explaining to me how you guys come up with the damage per round calculations? What's assumed based on chance to hit, etc. Or just point me to a thread that already explains this.

Sent from my SM-G955U using EN World mobile app

Thank you!

 

[FrogReaver]

Because they will increase general party power to a large extent, and also shift the balance of damage capability severely towards casters and other long-rest based classes.

More combat rounds gives the classes with less nova capabilities, but more at-will damage a chance to catch up: Initially the nova classes will open up a large lead by throwing high-level spells, burning sorcery points etc. Once they are down to cantrips or similar, the less-nova classes will start to catch up. If the adventuring day is so short that the nova classes aren't forced into using their lesser, at-will attacks then the other classes aren't going to be able to catch up, and thus will be much lower damage-dealers.

Similarly with removing short rests. If a DM runs no short rests without adjusting anything else then classes that recover resources on short rests are going to be operating with less than half of the resources that they are balanced around. Thus the long-rest-based classes are going to appear to be much better damage-dealers than they would be with the original set of assumptions.

I understand the general back and forth but that doesn't mean it impacts things enough for say a sword and shield paladin with shield master to close the gap on a SS CE fighter. I guess we could look at how much of a buff we give a paladin under such assumption and how much of a nerf we give a fighter to get a benchmark?

 

[clearstream]

I can't see why you would quote me as if I said something you are commenting upon. I was not talking about either of those things.

But since you did bring me into this..

Without context, your conclusion is absurd. Why would a flyer choose to fall to its death instead of soaking a small bit of booming damage?

Exactly. A creature that is flying who lacks Hover, presumably has little choice other than take Booming Blade damage. (Or fall.)

 

[Thateous]

Exactly. A creature that is flying who lacks Hover, presumably has little choice other than take Booming Blade damage. (Or fall.)

You should read the link i posted toward the end of the previous page. Granted, a DM can rule however they want...

For the extremely lazy among us.

 

[Thateous]

There is no one set formula for DPR. They all include come combination of average damage * chance to hit * number of attacks. In my thread since we are looking at daily DPR we can multiply our at "will DPR" by the number of rounds we expect to be in combat (unless we plan to do something else for a few turns in the combat in which case we take out the damage here for those turns) and then add short rest and long rest abilities to that total (generally just taking the average damage they can do weighted with their chance to do that damage) and after all that is added up we divide again by the number of rounds we are in combat for the day. Oh and often people exclude critical hits from their calculations for ease of calculation because most builds gain relatively little from crits. If you are making a build around crits or a build that uses a lot of damage dice on each attack then you probably should factor in crits into your comparisons.

Feel free to ask any other questions.

Oh and in case you are wondering, precision attack can be thought of as giving +3 attack as optimal use of that is very close to granting an effective +3 attack over 24 rounds of combat and 2 short rests.

I'm sorry, I think the ISS just did pass-over. How does one even calculate chance to hit? If this is already explained somewhere else, I don't want you to have to redo work. I'd like to use this knowledge to do some calculations for myself as well.

 

[FrogReaver]

I'm sorry, I think the ISS just did pass-over. How does one even calculate chance to hit? If this is already explained somewhere else, I don't want you to have to redo work. I'd like to use this knowledge to do some calculations for myself as well.

1 - (Target's AC - Your Attack - 1) / 20

I usually do my calculations over a range of AC's. Some people just pick 1 and look at it.

 

[mellored]

Yea. How do those assumptions really change who the best damage dealer is?

Fewer battles favor daily effects, and longer combats favor duration effects like moonbeam and spiritual weapon.

For example, dipping Barbarian 3 for 3 rages can last for all the full 24 rounds of CapnZapp's assumptions, but only 12 rounds with your/DMG assumptions.


Similarly, a level 6 cleric with CaptnZapp's assumptions would have 2d8 sacred flame, 1d8+4 spirutal weapon, 3d8 spiritual guardian for each battle.
= 31 DPR * .55 = 17.05, +3d8*.45*.5 (half on save) = 20.0875 DPR (+16.5 each day from inflict wounds).
But would doing about half that damage under your/DMG's assumptions.

 

[FrogReaver]

Fewer battles favor daily effects, and longer combats favor duration effects like moonbeam and spiritual weapon.<br>
<br>
For example, dipping Barbarian 3 for 3 rages can last for all the full 24 rounds of CapnZapp's assumptions, but only 12 rounds with your/DMG assumptions.<br>
<br>
<br>
Similarly, a level 6 cleric with CaptnZapp's assumptions would have 2d8 sacred flame, 1d8+4 spirutal weapon, 3d8 spiritual guardian for each battle.<br>
= 31 DPR * .55 = 17.05, +3d8*.45*.5 (half on save) = 20.0875 DPR (+16.5 each day from inflict wounds).<br>
But would doing about half that damage under your/DMG's assumptions.

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I looked at a few examples with paladins and battlemasters. The battlemaster Fighter didn't really change much in the various circumstances I placed him in. The paladin could drastically change in his potential maybe increasing potential up to 40-50% on single combat encounter days as opposed to the baseline 24ish rounds of combat per day.  Barbarians didn't change much either.