Book of NineSwords

[brehobit]

There is one maneuver which is stronger than many Core spells. I consider that an error rather than a categorical classification. In all cases except that one, Maneuvers are weaker than spells.

Cheers, -- N

I think spells and maneuvers are very different things. But I don't get the claim that maneuvers are somehow weaker than spells. Less flexible? Sure. But not less powerful.

I know of no 2nd level spell that lets you overcome ANY damage reduction for even a single attack. Mountain Hammer AND foehammer strike also gives you +2d6 damage on that strike and the attack is just part of the spell (all one standard action). Very handy in the right situations. As far as I can tell, this overcomes something like epic and silver and good/20 or even -/20. I don't think most people would allow that as a 2nd level spell.

Counter Charge would also be a very powerful spell. Being able to stop a charge as an immediate action 50% of the time is might powerful for a 1st level immediate spell.

War Master's charge is also very powerful. I don't know of any spell that can deal out as much damage as this can. While it certainly has a lack of flexibility compared to wish, with the right set-up it can do thousands of points of damage with extremely high probability and no save or SR (and even DR won't help much. You need tiny allies and medium allies vs. a medium opponent -or- medium fliers vs. a huge or larger opponent).

Mark

 

[Slaved]

I know of no 2nd level spell that lets you overcome ANY damage reduction for even a single attack.

Spells are generally not impeded by damage reduction though. An interesting example of a spell that attacks kindof like a weapon but that ignores damage reduction is Spiritual Weapon.

 

[Mort]

I think spells and maneuvers are very different things. But I don't get the claim that maneuvers are somehow weaker than spells. Less flexible? Sure. But not less powerful.

I know of no 2nd level spell that lets you overcome ANY damage reduction for even a single attack. Mountain Hammer AND foehammer strike also gives you +2d6 damage on that strike and the attack is just part of the spell (all one standard action). Very handy in the right situations. As far as I can tell, this overcomes something like epic and silver and good/20 or even -/20. I don't think most people would allow that as a 2nd level spell.

How about (just from the core book): magic weapon - 1st level
Align weapon - 2nd level
Both of these last rounds (so the entire fight really) as opposed to 1 attack - and if cast on a fighters weapon the fighter can full attack as opposed to be limited to 1 attack for the round.

Also that 1 attack is a big limitation especially past 6th level because any melee class can power attack on multiple attacks and make up many points of damage reduction.

Forgetting the above for a moment, I also think it's a nice thing to give a character an option other than "find the appropriate weapon" - any options that take away from magic item dependency, are a good thing in my book.

Counter Charge would also be a very powerful spell. Being able to stop a charge as an immediate action 50% of the time is might powerful for a 1st level immediate spell.

This comes up so rarely that I don't think it's that big a deal. last time a friend played a swordsage he had this maneuver readied for the entire adventure and never used it. Besides nothing stops the bad guy from trying again next round (after the maneuver is expended).

War Master's charge is also very powerful. I don't know of any spell that can deal out as much damage as this can. While it certainly has a lack of flexibility compared to wish, with the right set-up it can do thousands of points of damage with extremely high probability and no save or SR (and even DR won't help much. You need tiny allies and medium allies vs. a medium opponent -or- medium fliers vs. a huge or larger opponent).
Mark

I suppose there is room for abuse for this ability - but it's 17th+ level and can only be abused if you get really cheasy (tiny allies joining in a charge - I've never seen it happen, are you recruiting the mages familiar?) Also it has the added "benefit" of leaving your group conveniently together for the rest of the bad guys. I'll say this - if you can get your entire party working in such a way as to properly utilize this maneuver, more power to you, that kind of teamwork is really rare and deserves to be rewarded.

 

[brehobit]

How about (just from the core book): magic weapon - 1st level
Align weapon - 2nd level
Both of these last rounds (so the entire fight really) as opposed to 1 attack - and if cast on a fighters weapon the fighter can full attack as opposed to be limited to 1 attack for the round.

Those can get past epic DR or 20/-?

Also that 1 attack is a big limitation especially past 6th level because any melee class can power attack on multiple attacks and make up many points of damage reduction.

Actually, a swordsage can't, but your point is taken, anyone with a +6 or better BAB would suffer a real limitation.

None-the-less, would people really be okay with a 2nd level cleric spell that, as a standard action, let you take a single attack that ignored all DR? It might be balanced, but especially at higher levels it could be pretty handy. As a 9th level melee cleric I'd certainly keep it on my short list. Adding 2d6 damage would make it one of my most common spells. If I was moving and attacking (no charge) that round anyways, it would be better than the standard action attack I was going to take no matter what...

This comes up so rarely that I don't think it's that big a deal. last time a friend played a swordsage he had this maneuver readied for the entire adventure and never used it. Besides nothing stops the bad guy from trying again next round (after the maneuver is expended).

Two things.
#1 as a first level spell slot (rather than a maneuver slot) I'd almost certainly take it at higher levels (say 7 and up) as a mage or cleric. Get to use a first level spell as an immediate action to stop a charge? That's huge: it costs you only a first level spell and an immediate action (which you likely weren't using anyways unless you've got a rod of quickening or something) and it is just as good as a daze.

#2 Trying again is just fine. First of all, you can place him in a position where he can't charge on the next round. Secondly, you've negated a standard action by a baddy. That's mighty handy.

I suppose there is room for abuse for this ability - but it's 17th+ level and can only be abused if you get really cheasy (tiny allies joining in a charge - I've never seen it happen, are you recruiting the mages familiar?) Also it has the added "benefit" of leaving your group conveniently together for the rest of the bad guys. I'll say this - if you can get your entire party working in such a way as to properly utilize this maneuver, more power to you, that kind of teamwork is really rare and deserves to be rewarded.

Druid does an empowered summons, and a quickened (minor) summons mage does the same. Warblade starts the charge. Game over for a CR 30 baddy. It takes work, but I really don't think there exists much of anything under CR 30 that can take it.

I agree it takes work. My argument is that those abilities above would be quite powerful as spells and/or are more powerful than spells of the same level. I don't see this as a show-stopper per se, but I do think it contributes to the balance problems with these classes.

Mark

Mark

 

[Slaved]

None-the-less, would people really be okay with a 2nd level cleric spell that, as a standard action, let you take a single attack that ignored all DR?

I showed a core spell in my last post that did that and more!

 

[Zurai]

None-the-less, would people really be okay with a 2nd level cleric spell that, as a standard action, let you take a single attack that ignored all DR? It might be balanced, but especially at higher levels it could be pretty handy. As a 9th level melee cleric I'd certainly keep it on my short list. Adding 2d6 damage would make it one of my most common spells. If I was moving and attacking (no charge) that round anyways, it would be better than the standard action attack I was going to take no matter what...

As mentioned, Spiritual Weapon pretty much does exactly that, except it's at medium range, affects incorporeal creatures, and can full attack while the caster does other things.
Foehammer and Mountain Hammer don't seem all that good comparitively.

Two things.
#1 as a first level spell slot (rather than a maneuver slot) I'd almost certainly take it at higher levels (say 7 and up) as a mage or cleric. Get to use a first level spell as an immediate action to stop a charge? That's huge: it costs you only a first level spell and an immediate action (which you likely weren't using anyways unless you've got a rod of quickening or something) and it is just as good as a daze.

Quite true. Unfortunately, it's a maneuver, not a spell. AT MOST, you can get 15 maneuvers readied in a single class (Master of Nine added to Swordsage levels). Comparatively, a 20th level wizard with a lowly 20 intelligence will have 47 spells prepared (56 if a specialist wizard) - more than 3 times as many. A wizard is also forced to take those low level spells, so there's no reason not to take a very situational low-level spell. A martial adept doesn't really have enough maneuvers readied in most cases to take anything as situational as Counter Charge.

Druid does an empowered summons, and a quickened (minor) summons mage does the same. Warblade starts the charge. Game over for a CR 30 baddy. It takes work, but I really don't think there exists much of anything under CR 30 that can take it.

Except that any CR30 opponent is going to have at least DR 20/epic and 50-60 AC. Those summoned monsters are thus doing next to no damage, if they hit, even with the bonuses from WMC.

And, honestly, why would said druid and mage not instead use, say, Tsunami + Time Stop + Gate + Disjunction + Reality Maelstrom (or other similarly powerful spells). Remember, this is a 17th+ level party, if the martial adept can use War Master's Charge. The spellcasters are capable of infinitely stronger abilities than a maneuver that explicitly requires several allies to put themselves in harm's way in order to get full effect.

 

[AllisterH]

Those can get past epic DR or 20/-?

Nope. However, how many creatures actually HAVE epic DR or 20/-? More importantly, if you're actually dealing with a creature that has such DR, I as a DM would giggle insanely if my player bothered with Ancient Mountain Hammer (this is the highest manoeuver stone dragons have that can bypass DR and that only gives a bonus of 12d6.) A round doing one normal attack (you can't even charge and use a manoeuver) + 12d6 at epic levels against an epic monster? Yeah, that's not exactly a big problem?

Beside, any creature that has epic DR and 20/- tends to be able to FLY and well, stone dragons are just plain screwed then. Don't forget, stone dragon manoeuvers ONLY work when you are in contact with the ground. At mid to high levels, this is a HUGE limitation similar to the problem Desert Wind has (at mid to high levels, it seems like anyone and their dog too has some form of Fire Resist).

None-the-less, would people really be okay with a 2nd level cleric spell that, as a standard action, let you take a single attack that ignored all DR? It might be balanced, but especially at higher levels it could be pretty handy. As a 9th level melee cleric I'd certainly keep it on my short list. Adding 2d6 damage would make it one of my most common spells. If I was moving and attacking (no charge) that round anyways, it would be better than the standard action attack I was going to take no matter what...

As a 9th level melee cleric, both Align Weapon and Magic Weapn last 9 minutes. Unless you get jumped (which admittedly does happen), you'll get more than enough time to have it up and running. Beside, at 9th level, you're starting to fly and hell, even earlier, if you probably been on boats, your stone dragon friend is out of luck.

Two things.
#1 as a first level spell slot (rather than a maneuver slot) I'd almost certainly take it at higher levels (say 7 and up) as a mage or cleric. Get to use a first level spell as an immediate action to stop a charge? That's huge: it costs you only a first level spell and an immediate action (which you likely weren't using anyways unless you've got a rod of quickening or something) and it is just as good as a daze.

#2 Trying again is just fine. First of all, you can place him in a position where he can't charge on the next round. Secondly, you've negated a standard action by a baddy. That's mighty handy.

It won't get used a lot honestly. Remember, Countercharge is an immediate action meaning if you're flat-footed, no countercharge for you so in the first round of combat it might not help and it works only against creatures that like to charge. Honestly, mages have better options in the game already. Grease, core 1st level spell. Negates charges and at higher levels, last long enough for entire battles.

Druid does an empowered summons, and a quickened (minor) summons mage does the same. Warblade starts the charge. Game over for a CR 30 baddy. It takes work, but I really don't think there exists much of anything under CR 30 that can take it.

I agree it takes work. My argument is that those abilities above would be quite powerful as spells and/or are more powerful than spells of the same level. I don't see this as a show-stopper per se, but I do think it contributes to the balance problems with these classes.

Mark

Mark

Er, Warmaster's charge has so many limitations in this scenario.
1. The time it takes.
2. Steadfast Boots
3. Countercharge.

Beside, wouldn't the bigger issue be the fact that druids and mages can summon so many allies? I can do wonders with the druid and mage's summon lists as well.

 

[Nifft]

Cause you are basically saying that the strongest maneuver is weaker than the weakest cantrip or first level spell with a blanket statement like that.

I'm fairly certain you don't actually think that's what I said, but I'm willing to spell it out if you are honestly feeling confusion about spell vs. maneuver power levels.

Those can get past epic DR or 20/-?

ToB doesn't really deal with Epic anything. It would be reasonable to rule that "overcomes DR" fails to overcome Epic DR.

However, pre-Epic, it's a rare kind of DR to have. All I can find are solars and the tarrasque -- what other critters have Epic DR?

None-the-less, would people really be okay with a 2nd level cleric spell that, as a standard action, let you take a single attack that ignored all DR?

One attack? That's not a problem IMHO. I'd probably be fine with that spell.

(The bad thing about wraithstrike was that you could Power Attack with like 20 off-hand and secondary natural weapons. As a bonus to a single attack, it would have been just fine.)

- - -

Regarding War Master's Charge, I think we all agree it's too strong. However, compared to what 9th level spells can do... *shudder*

The optimal use of War Master's Charge allows you to do some nasty damage and stun a dude for one round -- with no save! But how about the optimal use of gate? You gain an infinite number of Solars.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Slaved]

The optimal use of War Master's Charge allows you to do some nasty damage and stun a dude for one round -- with no save!

Cheers, -- N

Remember! If you ever have this used against you and you have a way to negate or greatly hinder a single attack use that ability on the one who initiated the maneuver! If he misses then there is no chance of stunning and the total damage is decreased by what might be the highest potential damage hit.

In other words, use Counter Charge on the leader of that charge.

 

[AllisterH]

- - -

Regarding War Master's Charge, I think we all agree it's too strong. However, compared to what 9th level spells can do... *shudder*

The optimal use of War Master's Charge allows you to do some nasty damage and stun a dude for one round -- with no save! But how about the optimal use of gate? You gain an infinite number of Solars.

Cheers, -- N

Actually, I disagree with that statement quite strongly. This is a prime example of a "Looks great on paper" ability. Warmaster's Charge isn't "too strong" since all of the tricks require "get a druid/mage/cleric to cast summons and get them set up properly".

Remember, Warmaster's charge doesn't change the rules on charging. The creature who charge with you.,still MUST have line of effect and line of sight to the target (they just don't count fellow chargers as being obstacles). As well, if you have used an immediate or swift action that round, you already are disqualified from taking part (and you then become an obstacle).

Sure, theoretically, you could stick tiny creatures in each one of those squares and if you have a featureless plain, I can see this may actually working, but in practice?

Warmaster's charge will only get 1 or 2 extra attackers and frankly, it should do more since this is one of the few "takes teamwork to pull off" abilities I've ever seen in the game.

Beside, as I said before "GREASE" 1st level spell negates Charging and wizards were pulling this off 20 levels back.