Book of NineSwords
- Thread starter Belbarid
- Start date
DreamChaser
Explorer
MA have the limit of "per encounter" maneuvers but this is not a limit to the Warblade, who can regain every one of them as a free action in conjunction with an attack. This, to me, is the single absolute must fix of the Warblade. (Especially when balanced against the Swordsage which can get 1 back as a full round action).
I love Bo9S; I think it lends itself well the high fantasy I prefer to play (if I wanted historical fiction, I'd read a book), but it does run itself toward unbalancing in some places.
DC
I love Bo9S; I think it lends itself well the high fantasy I prefer to play (if I wanted historical fiction, I'd read a book), but it does run itself toward unbalancing in some places.
DC
DreamChaser said:
The warblade recovers maneuvers with a swift action, not a free action. Big difference, you only get one swift/turn, and it often gets used up by an immediate action the previous turn. Also, on the turn you recover, you can't use any maneuvers.
Also, the swordsage brings around twice as many maneuvers to a given fight, for way more options every round. And with Adaptive Style (a must), they essentially recover all of those options with a full round action.
Warblade maneuver recovery is far from needing fixed, and as some have said... Of the three classes, there's serious potential that the Warblade is the least powerful.
brehobit
Explorer
Nifft said:
Had a ranger, cleric, and warlock in addition to the swordsage. The warlock had the fey feats (quite powerful), the cleric the DMM feats, and the ranger had a holy sword (at 4th level). The swordsage was still more powerful all the way from 4th (when the swordsage joined the party) until 8th (when we quit that game). The others were quite powerful also. But the swordsage was clearly the most powerful. The ranger occasionally did more damage, but the swordsage averaged higher and had a better AC and had area attacks (death mark mainly) that helped a LOT.
Also had a crusader in a game (same player) where he was dominant. Crusaders are darn powerful...
brehobit
Explorer
I'd argue it _does_ need to be fixed. But I also don't allow adaptive style to recover maneuvers in a fight (only change which ones are prepared). Otherwise it's way to powerful (or as you said, a must).castro3nw said:
The warblade is the weakest of the 3, and if you are allowing all three, it might not need to be fixed. But as written, a warblade is only a bit more powerful than the core warrior classes, so if you were to add only 1 class, that's the once I'd choose.
Mark
szilard
First Post
DreamChaser said:
Have you played a Warblade?
First, this is a swift action, not a free action. The difference is non-trivial: Warblades have to manage their swift/immediate actions carefully.
Second, "in conjunction with an attack" is also non-trivial. This is a single attack (not a full-attack) with which no maneuvers can be used. It means that the Warblade (who is likely in close melee) is going to be relatively ineffective that round.
-Stuart
Nail
First Post
Put more simply: Warblades get manuevers that have swift/immediate action times. If the class didn't have swift action powers (like Ftrs, Bbns, Mnks, Pal, Rog, .....), then it wouldn't be an issue. I'm sure all these other classes are quite sympathetic to the class that occasionally can't use their swift action abilities.szilard said:
Not entirely true.szilard said:
The Warblade may take a full-attack action and still recover his manuevers.
brehobit said:
The swordsage was more powerful than a 7th level cleric with divine metamagic? If he was using persistant spell then at level 7 he could have a persistant divine power which gives him full base attack bonus, a +6 enhancement bonus to strength, and 7 temporary hit points plus the other things that clerics give you.
I would have to see all of the builds in question and hear about the players play styles but those claims look very difficult to substantiate just by looking at a single spell cast with divine metamagic and persistant spell.
Man, the power of the human mind to conjure up rationalizations....castro3nw said:
Martial maneuvers are different from warlocks, incarnum classes, binders, and other "unlimited use" classes in one big way: maneuvers are really fricking powerful. They're on the magnitude of spells without the expendability. That's kinda broken.
Yep. It's funny there are still folks out there asserting otherwise.Nail said:
Last edited:
pressedcat
First Post
Assuming a)the dm doesn't tell the cleric where to stick his metamagicked persitnt spell, b)pull out the faq with the bit about not being able to metamagic a spell over the maximum spell level the cleric can cast, c)send wave after wave of undead at the cleric whilst cackling what, you haven't got any turns left?, d)just dispell it...
Sure there are uber feat combos out there, but if not everybody has access to them (or wants to think up beardier combinations), it can just unbalance the party and spoil some people's fun. It might be possible that some of the players might not have the most optimal feat choices, but that's not the same as saying the swordsage wasn't overly dominant in the game.
I've seen a dwarven warblade in play from levels 3-8 in conjunction with a fighter/barbarian going down combat brute/shock trooper/combat brute/power attack route, a straight barbarian with a goliath great hammer, and a (rather pathetic) paladin going down a more defensive shield spec route. Although the fighter and barbarian were capable of dishing out more damage, we found that the warblade would hit more often because not dependent on pa, did prety respectable damage thanks to strikes, could stack his ac prety well due to stances (and spending a feat on hvy armour), automatically ignore some persistant spell effects thanks to a manoevre i cant remember the name of, and take lots of damage, all whilst tumbling around in full plate.
I wouldn't say that warblades are broken, but they can be far more versatile than the fighters and other front liners they are meant to compete against. bo9s is great, but i'm not sure i like the way it can overshadow the archetypal fighter class.
