Book of NineSwords

[WhatGravitas]

.. agree with most of the above posts but I do think Bo9S classes, or specifically Swordsages which I have seen in action, look particularly good compared to the Core classes at level 1 (a bunch of manuevers and weapon focus) and level 5 (3rd level manuever and stance e.g. assasins stance + burning blade + death mark easily =2d6 (greatsword) +4 (Str) +2 (Wis) + 1 (magic)+ 2d6 (sneak) + d6+5 (burning blade) + 6d6 (death mark) = 11d6+12 (assume hit, fails reflex save, no protection vs fire)

But then: On this level, a rogue with a greatsword can do 2d6 + 3d6 + Str-Mod. in similar circumstances (i.e. flanking) and can repeat that every round, while the swordsage must twiddle his fingers for refreshing maneouvres - and he only needs the same attack (with the same B.A.B.), with no save.

 

[lukelightning]

I don't know much about the details of the book and its concepts, but from what I've seen in my brand new 1st level game I'm not sure it fits in well with the core game. There are 3 characters in the party with "Nine Swords" characters, and they seem, well, kind of cheesy.

Not only do they have unlimited-use special abilites, but the abilities seem awfully powerful and versatile for 1st level characters. I also think the abilities are awfully "special-effecty" for martial characters—it seems that there is no limit to what these abilites can do as long as there is some token "martial" flavor given to them. At first level this guy can give himself concealment, do cold damage, and who knows what else...the other guy can heal himself or others an unlimited number of times... there doesn't seem to be any focus to these abilities. I'm not opposed to some special effect melee abilities, but at first level, an unlimited number of times?!?!?

Meanwhile my beguiler can cast 4 first level spells, then stick a fork in me, I'm done. I'm glad I'm not the rogue, though; it seems these martial guys can get sneak attack as well. I just hope the DM doesn't keep planning all the encounters based on all these "unlimited use" characters (there is a warlock as well...), otherwise I'm screwed.

 

[Nifft]

In addition to that, I don't like the sound of manouvres that use jump checks to set save DCs (it is easy to get monstrous Jump checks), and I'm leery of any abilities which substitute a skill check for something else, especially with the ease with which skill buff magic can be often obtained.

There's only one of those, I think, and yeah -- it should be errata'd to be a fixed DC.

The other one I'd fix is War Master's Charge. Just limit it to yourself and four allies (or any other small fixed number).

Still, that's only four total.

Any others that need correction? Thanks, -- N

 

[Elemental]

I don't know much about the details of the book and its concepts, but from what I've seen in my brand new 1st level game I'm not sure it fits in well with the core game. There are 3 characters in the party with "Nine Swords" characters, and they seem, well, kind of cheesy.

Not only do they have unlimited-use special abilites, but the abilities seem awfully powerful and versatile for 1st level characters. I also think the abilities are awfully "special-effecty" for martial characters—it seems that there is no limit to what these abilites can do as long as there is some token "martial" flavor given to them. At first level this guy can give himself concealment, do cold damage, and who knows what else...the other guy can heal himself or others an unlimited number of times... there doesn't seem to be any focus to these abilities. I'm not opposed to some special effect melee abilities, but at first level, an unlimited number of times?!?!?

Unlimited effects seems to be the way of the future--the Warlock, Binder and Incarnum classes all spring to mind, as do reserve feats. And IME, once the spellcaster is tapped, that's when the group falls back and rests.

Martial characters can be very "special effects" in some genres. Anime and wuxia are the most obvious, but you can find similar examples in places like the mythology of the Fianna or the Indian Mahabharata. I'll see if I can dig up some examples. I know a lot of D&D players disdain anything that's not "Tolkeinesque" or "medieval Europe", but D&D has always had a strong element of the superheroic, especially at mid to high levels. The Bo9S just lets "the guy with a sword" get in on the spellcasters game.

With that said, Bo9S characters don't have to be flashy. It's perfectly possible to put together a Warblade who uses Iron Heart and Diamond Mind, and who never does anything obviously unnatural beyond "I'm really good at fighting." during the entire game.

 

[AllisterH]

At low levels 1-3, I don't think it matters.

We've been doing a 25 pt "gauntlet" on the WOTC boards and pretty much the tactic, "Rage, Charge, Power Attack" will potentially drop anything at CR 3 and will definitely wipe out CR 1 foes.

For example, building a martial adept with only 25 pts is just plain impossible if you want to be assured of doing any decent damage. Ironically, the least flashy class, the crusader, is in my opinion, the most powerful of the Bo9S classes. Its like the inverse of the paladin.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

^ My favored way to hit both types is the classic Waves-of-Attackers encounter.

Cheers, -- N

My players' "favorite." Known to our group as a "Gate Battle."

 

[blargney the second]

AllisterH - yep, crusaders have some very serious staying power. They really aren't flashy (at least until they get Divine Surge), but they make the Energizer bunny look anemic.

 

[Nail]

Having seen the warblade and crusader in play, I have to say that they're not nearly as "overpowered" as they seem on first glance. Yes, they're somewhat more potent than the core fighter in many respects*, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Having seen the warblade in play (for 6 months), *I* have to say that they *are* over-powered. You'll need to tweak them, power-up the Ftr, and adjust your DMing style to compensate.

 

[Nail]

There's only one of those, I think, and yeah -- it should be errata'd to be a fixed DC.

The other one I'd fix is War Master's Charge. Just limit it to yourself and four allies (or any other small fixed number).

Still, that's only four total.

Any others that need correction? Thanks, -- N

That's a good start.

Moment of Perfect Mind (et al.) need work too. And possibly (I mean that: "possibly") the Insightful Strike line of manuevers. We'll see with higher level of play; the Warblade is only 6th level.

The other thing that needs work/clarification is how Warblade/Swordsages work. That's....confusing.

 

[Nifft]

Having seen the warblade in play (for 6 months), *I* have to say that they *are* over-powered. You'll need to tweak them, power-up the Ftr, and adjust your DMing style to compensate.

Compared to anything except a Fighter, are they still overpowered? Compared to a Cleric, or a Druid, or a Barbarian, or a Wizard, or a Scout?

Thanks, -- N