D&D (2024) bring back the pig faced orcs for 6th edition, change up hobgoblins & is there a history of the design change

[Sacrosanct]

I honestly never used hobgoblins back in the day because I didn't see the point in another generic evil humanoid race. i.e. I didn't fee as though I could do anything with the hobgoblin that I couldn't do just as well with an orc. I welcome the Romanesque hobgoblin of modern times.

Theoretically, hobgoblins were more organized, disciplined, and militarily strategic with use of tactics. But, as you say, it's super easy to have orcs do the same thing.

 

[wicked cool]

just an fyi theres a Q&A with gary gygax on his version of orcs (2002-2008). Col_Pladoh (exact date is March 13,2007)

orcs-porcupine in appearance with upturned nose, tusks pig like eyes
hobgoblins-Apish

if you make your orcs wear legion like armor than hobgolins are just a name. maybe hobgoblins need to have legion tactics added to their descriptions like roman soldiers(the testudo, the wedge, ballista etc)

 

[el-remmen]

maybe hobgoblins need to have legion tactics

They do have martial advantage.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

Legend of Zelda essentially uses "pig-faced folk" or bokoblins as their generic bad-guy stand-in. I don't find this look inherently better than any other, and I certainly don't think D&D would suddenly have unique orcs for using it (the bokoblins are quite iconic, as are Star Wars' Gamorrians).

That said, the pig-look can be made to look intimidating indeed. Check out this art by Dave Repoza, depicting Zelda's Ganon;

 

[embee]

Gork: WE DON'T SPEAK ABOUT IT!

From the CLASSIC DS9 episode "Trials & Tribble-ations":

The waitress points to the nearby table Bashir and O'Brien passed earlier. They turn and look with some surprise at the original series-style Klingons, who do not have the typical forehead ridges they're accustomed to seeing. Worf studies his drink as the others turn one and look at him for explanation.

BASHIR
(to Worf)
Those are Klingons?

WAITRESS
All right. You boys have had
enough.

The Waitress moves off.

ODO
Mister Worf... ?

Worf looks up with discomfort at the three expectant
faces.

WORF
They are Klingons.

Three heads turn and look at the Klingons and then look
back at Worf.

WORF
It is a... long story.

O'BRIEN
What happened? Some kind
genetic engineering... ?

BASHIR
A viral mutation... ?

WORF
(defensive)
We do not discuss it with
outsiders.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Hmm. IIRC, the hobgoblins of Tolkien were specifically not the generic soldiers of evil. The were a cross between a traditional orc and a human to make them stronger in general and specifically in sunlight.

No, that is Uruk-Hai you are thinking of. They are never identified as hobgoblins. Saurman's version are the original half orcs though.

Tolkien only mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, as a larger bread of goblin.

 

[delericho]

Orcs were pig-faced in the old cartoon, weren't they?

Personally, I lean towards one-eyed orcs, based on a picture I saw once (can't think where). But I'm really not bothered about how they are depicted.

 

[Charlaquin]

Hmm. IIRC, the hobgoblins of Tolkien were specifically not the generic soldiers of evil. The were a cross between a traditional orc and a human to make them stronger in general and specifically in sunlight.

No, that is Uruk-Hai you are thinking of. They are never identified as hobgoblins. Saurman's version are the original half orcs though.

Tolkien only mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, as a larger bread of goblin.

You’re both kind of right.

It’s important to note that in Tolkien’s Middle Earth, orc and goblin are not the names of different races or breeds of creature (contrary to what the Peter Jackson films suggest). Goblin and Orc are both just English translations of the Westron word Orca, and refer to the same species (much like Billbo Baggins is a localization of the character’s canonical name, Bilba Labingi). The word “hobgoblin” only appears twice in the legendarium, both in The Hobbit, and both in reference to a larger variety of goblin. But remember, in canon The Hobbit is an English translation of an in-universe book written by Bilba. So “hobgoblin” is an English translation of some Westron word he used to refer to “a larger variety of (orc),” which certainly could mean Uruk-Hai. And indeed, with his Wattsonian hat on, Tolkien notes that it is possible this is what Bilba meant. With his Doylist hat on, he would likely admit the languages were still in an earlier stage of development at the time, and that he accidentally used it to mean the opposite of its real-world meaning.

 

[Urriak Uruk]

No, that is Uruk-Hai you are thinking of. They are never identified as hobgoblins. Saurman's version are the original half orcs though.

Tolkien only mentions hobgoblins in The Hobbit, as a larger bread of goblin.

You’re thinking of Uruk-hai.

It’s important to note that in Tolkien’s Middle Earth, orc and goblin are not the names of different races or breeds of creature. Goblin and Orc are both just English translations of the Westron word Orca, and refer to the same species (much like Billbo Baggins is a localization of the character’s canonical name, Bilba Labingi). The word “hobgoblin” only appears twice in the legendarium, both in The Hobbit, and both in reference to a larger variety of goblin. With his Wattsonian hat on, Tolkien notes that the word most likely refers to Uruks.

He's technically, maybe correct here... hobgoblin is mentioned only once in the Hobbit, as a larger form of orc, and there is some assumption they are similar to Uruk-Hai. It is a throw-away line though, and nothing is actually confirmed one way or another.

Hobgoblins

Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places [in The Hobbit] but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)J.R.R. Tolkien, Preface to The Hobbit Hobgoblins were stronger, larger, and more menacing than other Orcs. They are mentioned only once, by Gandalf, in...

lotr.fandom.com

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Now I want to homebrew a layer of hell called Orcus Porcus. All pigs, for miles.

Thinking about it, was the origin of the Devil-Swine just a big Latin joke?

To nitpick - because hey, it's what we do:

Origin
View attachment 135281

Aesthetically, I love the pig-faced orc designs.

Hobgoblins have always felt like filler for me. Their identity has never clicked for me in the same way orcs and goblins have.