D&D 5E Buffing Level 11+ Monks

[Stormonu]

One of the things I really dislike about the current monk class is that they’re cookie-cutter and they all get the same high level RP abilities - many of those abilities at a detriment to their increase in martial power.

What about at 11th level the monk stops having to pay Ki to use flurry?

 

[Xeviat]

One of the things I really dislike about the current monk class is that they’re cookie-cutter and they all get the same high level RP abilities - many of those abilities at a detriment to their increase in martial power.

What about at 11th level the monk stops having to pay Ki to use flurry?

That would be akin to just giving them an extra attack, and Mercy and Astral Self don't need a buff. It would also take away a way to let them spend their ki on a basic way to deal damage. The paladin gets a lesser smite on at all times, the monk needs something like that.

My own full monk rewrite takes a lot of the powers out and reintroduces then as power options. So you can customize the powers your monk gets, building anything from a more grounded martial artist to a wild anime inspired character. The base skeleton should be the core archetype.

But my suggestions here were meant to be a minimal change.

 

[Xeviat]

The scenario is an example. The point is the Monk should not be going into combat while he has sanctuary up and if he makes an attack against the first thing he sees after his rest then he is wasting the ability and not playing the class right IMO. I am not saying he is or should use it all the time, but the basic use should not be 1 free turn of attacks as was implied in the original post. Even if the party is going into combat, as long as it is a minor combat the Monk should still not attack and find other actions to help the party that do not break it. Use help, throw caltrops, use a magic item to buff party members, go stand next to an enemy using a missile weapon so he gets disadvantage.

I'm gonna have to just disagree. That doesn't seem like the way the Open Hand monk is intended to be played to me, with their flurry of blows enhancements and their quivering palm. I've also never seen a monk max Wis first. To each their own. I'm glad the class is working for you.

 

[Weiley31]

Animal Adventures: Secrets of Gullet Cover allows Cat Monks to swap out the Level 13th monk ability: Tongue of the Sun and Moon with something called Paw Flurry which is labeled as Ki-Empowered ability.

Paw Flurry: You can dash as a single action. Rather than have to move, and then move again as your second action, you can travel up to your full move as a single action.

At 1st level you gain, in addition to standard monk abilities, you get Nothing in the Laws of Physics: When making a Dexterity test to overcome any difficult terrain or jump over a gap, you make the test at advantage.

And then at level 5 in addition to your other abilities, you get Between the Rain: Gain Advantage on all Dexterity saves.

Not the end all be all fix to Monk, but in my humble opinion, I see nothing wrong with adding these to the Monk. Don't have use the cats or Tabaxi at all.

 

[NotAYakk]

First, the level 11 feature of monks doesn't have to carry a full extra attack's worth of damage.

Monks damage comes from a gradual increase in MA die and more Ki to spend on Flurry over a day, just like how a Rogue's damage comes from their sneak attack getting bigger.

OTOH, it is true that a bump at 5/11/17 is reasonable. And there is evidence that the Monk's damage output falls off at and past 11, as the monk reaches saturation of flurry of blows damage.

My solution was 3 fold.

Martial Arts: (change)

You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the Attack Rolls of your your unarmed strikes and monk weapons when not wearing armor. You can add both your Dexterity and Strength to the damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

One with Ki:
Starting at level 11, the first Ki you expend in a round is free, unless that Ki uses a monk class or subclass feature to heals or restores HP. In addition, once on your turn when you use a bonus action to spend Ki, you may take an additional different bonus action on your turn; it may not be the same bonus action twice.

Starting at level 17, when you spend Ki as a bonus action, you may do the the bonus action twice. Each use still costs Ki, and you can still do an additional different bonus action.

Perfect Self: (change)
The first 2 Ki you spend in a round is free, even if you use the Ki on a monk class of subclass ability to restore or heal HP. If you miss with an attack or an attack hits you, you can expend 1 Ki to cause that attack to be rerolled; if you don't like the result, you can spend more Ki to make it reroll further.


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The Martial Arts change makes Dex+Str be a damage dealing monk build. You have to be unarmored, so low Wisdom+Dex still sucks. But a 12 strength (or higher) gives you a damage buff. Equally important to me, it encourages Monks to be buff, without making it dominant.

One with Ki lets the monk flurry all day long, as they tend to do. It also lets them do other things with Ki without tanking their damage per round. A monk that flurries on every attack at level 11 isn't falling behind the damage curve.

At level 17, the ability to double-flurry comes online. 6 attacks for 1d10+dex+strength is nothing to sneeze at.

You also get to do gonzo things like double dash with +30 ft movement speed, moving 180 feet, then doing a 6 attack flurry (price: 3 Ki, including the free one).

The lack of pressure on your Ki from your large pool and your level 11 ability returns.

At level 20, we change Perfect Self from "you always have 4 Ki" to "the first 2 points you spend is free", and add in a new way to spend Ki like crazy. The idea of "you just don't miss" and "you just aren't hit" until you run out of Ki is fun.

I also removed the "no using this for healing". If your level 20 monk wants to do non-combat healing of everyone after a battle, have fun.

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The "burst" DPS of a flurry-using monk at 11 is fine; I just made it baseline. Now you are spending Ki on dodging, dashing, stunning, or your subclass abilities rather than hitting baseline DPS.

Your ability to invest in Strength to boost damage (instead of Wis or a feat) also provides a way to keep up with the Joneses.

By level 17 your DPS is starting to fall behind; so we go a bit gonzo and allow a double-flurry (and a double-dash, and a double-dodge which is useless but hey)

 

[Ancalagon]

IMO a Monk should max wisdom first and the role of the class is not to do massive damage in melee, maxing dex for the Monk so he can do damage is like maxing strength for a cleric or dexterity for a Bard so they can do maximum damage. It does not jive with the class design IMO.

I'm not 100% sure I agree with your analysis.

I do agree that maximizing damage is not as important for the monk, but to get all these spiffy powers, the monk must land the hit first. And for that, you need a good dex...

 

[Xeviat]

First, the level 11 feature of monks doesn't have to carry a full extra attack's worth of damage.

Monks damage comes from a gradual increase in MA die and more Ki to spend on Flurry over a day, just like how a Rogue's damage comes from their sneak attack getting bigger.

OTOH, it is true that a bump at 5/11/17 is reasonable. And there is evidence that the Monk's damage output falls off at and past 11, as the monk reaches saturation of flurry of blows damage.

My solution was 3 fold.

My concern with these fixes now that we've seen the changed direction in monk subclass design is that these changes will overtune the Mercy and Astral Self subclasses. That's why I suggested baking any improvements into the subclasses. Also, that way the monk subclasses can continue to play uniquely from each other.

The martial arts die isn't a big increase. It's +4 damage if all flurry attacks hit at 11th and 17th level. The fighter is getting +1d8+5 minimum, if not +1d8+7 +1 to 3 for enhancement, +any other magical bonuses.

 

[NotAYakk]

My concern with these fixes now that we've seen the changed direction in monk subclass design is that these changes will overtune the Mercy and Astral Self subclasses. That's why I suggested baking any improvements into the subclasses. Also, that way the monk subclasses can continue to play uniquely from each other.

The martial arts die isn't a big increase. It's +4 damage if all flurry attacks hit at 11th and 17th level. The fighter is getting +1d8+5 minimum, if not +1d8+7 +1 to 3 for enhancement, +any other magical bonuses.

I looked them over; so long as you don't let a monk dismiss and resummon the arms every round neither stack exrremely well with the features I kitbashed.

You get to arms+flurry one round per fight, and at 17 get to 3+2+2 attack with arms. But 17 is late to worry about it.

Mwrcy similarly is per round. It only adds eb0ndurance.

 

[Xeviat]

I looked them over; so long as you don't let a monk dismiss and resummon the arms every round neither stack exrremely well with the features I kitbashed.

You get to arms+flurry one round per fight, and at 17 get to 3+2+2 attack with arms. But 17 is late to worry about it.

Mwrcy similarly is per round. It only adds eb0ndurance.

The arms are maintained, you get that feature every round with unarmed attacks with the arms. The only thing that's only on the round you summon them is the aoe, and that makes up for not getting to use flurry that round.