D&D 5E Buffing the Champion Fighter

[Hayato]

Just give to him these buffs:
- at lvl3 +1 on damage rolls;
- at lvl7 + athletics proficiency;
- at lvl15 superior critical (17-20).

 

[Xeviat]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], it doesn't look like you included short rests for the battle master.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION], it doesn't look like you included short rests for the battle master.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm. These kind of involved maths (well, involved for me) are not my strong suit. I tried to understand several other spreadsheets, but they were so unclear it just made my eyes ache, so I was attempting something closer to "plain English maths."

Yikes! Looks like you're right!

I don't know what the normal assumption for short rests would be when comparing these sorts of things, but my DM instinct says 1 every 2-3 encounters?

Looking quickly at my 5th level numbers, I *think* I'd just do a "x2" for the average damage of superiority dice (since they get recharged once). So these would be the revised numbers...

[SBLOCK=Maths with a short rest]
Fighter: Champion vs. Battle Master DPR
Some players assert that Champion is weaker than Battle Master in terms of its damage output. Thus far, having seen both at my table playing up to 6th level, I didn't feel this was true. I ran some numbers, and it cast further doubt on that assertion. They seem practically evenly matched in terms of DPR.

Assume an average of 4 encounters of 4 rounds each (16 rounds of combat total) per day, against a monster of CR equal to the party’s level. Assume one short rest in between those somewhere. Also assume that the fighter can always attack each round (i.e. is in range and isn't paralyzed). Some days will have fewer or more encounters, some encounters will be over in a round while others will last a long time, and most assuredly there will be greater variety of CR and combat scenarios in actual play, but assume it’s a wash in the long-term.

I’m comparing a human fighter wielding a longsword one-handed, no feats, no magic items. Both have the Defense fighting style, but I’ve compared two versions of the 10th level+ Champion, one with bonus Dueling style and the other without. I’m comparing them at levels 5, 11, and 15.

Level 5
Str 18, AC 16 (scale mail, Dex 14), HP 44 (Con 14), longsword (2 attacks) +7 hit, 1d8+4 damage (8.5), 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+4 (13)
Battlemaster superiority dice 4d8 (18), added only on hits

vs. CR 5 monster AC 15; 65% chance to hit
Attacks/day = 32
Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 1.6 ≈ 2
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 0.8 ≈ 1

DPR (champion) = [ (30 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 13 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (165.75) + (26) ] / 16 = 11.98 DPR
DPR (battle master) = [ (31 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 8.5 avg. damage) + (1 attack/day is crit * 13 avg. damage) + (18 avg. damage superiority dice * 2 for a short rest) ] / 16 = [ (171.27) + (13) + (36) ] / 16 = 13.77 DPR

Level 11
Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 92 (Con 15), longsword (3 attacks) +9 hit, 1d8+5 damage (9.5) or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 10% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for champion
Battlemaster superiority dice 5d10 (27.5)

vs. CR 11 monster AC 17; 65% to hit
Attacks/day = 42
Critical hits (champion, 10%) = 4.2 ≈ 4
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2

DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (284.05) + (64) ] / 16 = 21.75 DPR
DPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (38 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (4 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 rounds = [ (234.65) + (56) ] / 16 = 18.16 DPR
DPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (27.5 avg. damage superiority dice * 2 for a short rest) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (55) ] / 16 = 20.62 DPR

Level 15
Str 20, AC 17 (half plate, Dex 14), HP 128 (Con 16 @ level 12), longsword (3 attacks) +10 hit, 1d8+5 (9.5) damage or 1d8+7 (11.5) champion, 5% critical hit (battlemaster), 15% critical hit (champion), crit 2d8+5 (14) or 2d8+7 (16) for champion
Battlemaster superiority dice 6d10 (and always have 1d10 at the start of combat even when depleted), so if we assume battlemaster spends 3 superiority dice per encounter, then we should add 2 more effective dice given the assumption of net 4 encounters/day. 8d10 (44).

vs. CR 15 monster AC 18; 65% to hit
Attacks/day = 42
Critical hits (champion (15%) = 6.3 ≈ 6
Critical hits (battlemaster, 5%) = 2.1 ≈ 2

DPR (champion, duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 11.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 16 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (269.1) + (96) ] / 16 = 22.82 DPR
DPR (champion, no duelist style @10th) = [ (36 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (6 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) ] / 16 = [ (222.3) + (84) ] / 16 = 19.14 DPR
DPR (battlemaster) = [ (40 attacks/day * 0.65 chance to hit * 9.5 avg. damage) + (2 attacks/day are crits * 14 avg. damage) + (44 avg. damage superiority dice * 2 for a short rest) ] / 16 = [ (247) + (28) + (88) ] / 16 = 22.69 DPR
[/SBLOCK]

It doesn't seem like a significant amount to me – even accounting for a short rest, the numbers still aren't glaringly different.

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not?

 

[FrogReaver]

@Quickleaf, it doesn't look like you included short rests for the battle master.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He also purposefully chose to not give duelist to the battle master. He also didn't consider precision attack. He didn't make the comparison with great weapons. Like there's so many intentional choices he made to try and help out the champion in His comparison it's ridiculous.

 

[FrogReaver]

My suggested fix for champion. At level 3 along with increased critical ability he also gets +1/+1 to all weapon attacks and +1 to all saves.

If this doesn't solves later balance then later these can maybe increase to +2

 

[Xeviat]

The typical number of short rests is 2 per day. Since the typical number of encounters in the DMG is 6-8, short rests are every 2-3 encounters. In reality, you're likely to short rest after a hard or deadly fight, or 1/3rd of the daily xp budget. The DMG says that if you go over 1/3rd of the daily budget without getting a rest, it's going to get harder.

My math on the first post is simple and sound. All things being equal, the 3rd level Fighter gets +4d8 damage per short rest, plus bonuses. A champion crits an extra 5% of the time, or 1 time every 20 attacks. This means a longsword champion has to get 80 attacks between short rests to balance with the battle master in just Damage. A great axe wielding half-orc balances earlier, but that's a specific build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[droid6689]

It doesn't seem like a significant amount to me – even accounting for a short rest, the numbers still aren't glaringly different.

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not?

Not sure why you gave battlemaster more attacks or why you gave champion duelist but not battlemaster. No fighter takes defense at level one. According to your stats if you gave the BM duelist he completely btfo champion

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Tony Vargas]

I don't know what the normal assumption for short rests would be when comparing these sorts of things, but my DM instinct says 1 every 2-3 encounters?

The encounter guidelines suggest 6-8 encounters and 2-3 short rest per day, which comes out to 2 encounters/ short rest.

It doesn't seem like a significant amount to me – even accounting for a short rest, the numbers still aren't glaringly different.

Maybe you're seeing something I'm not?

Because the BM's maneuvers can do more than just goose DPR a little, and their application to DPR is not random like crit, the expectation should be that the Champ will be the DPR champ - not by as a great a margin as it should beat the EK, but significant.

He also purposefully chose to not give duelist to the battle master. He also didn't consider precision attack. He didn't make the comparison with great weapons. Like there's so many intentional choices he made to try and help out the champion in His comparison it's ridiculous.

Going with a 1-handed weapon hurt the Champ a little, too.

But, the style choice is egregious, yes.

It's also unnecessary, as is most of the analysis. A Champ & BM can be identical in terms of DPR but for CS Dice and crit range. Those are the key things to compare.

 

[Sacrosanct]

No fighter takes defense at level one.

Not true. One of my players did. Because he wanted to max out defense because he envisioned his role as the tank. The one whole holds the doorway while the others get the mission done. And the highest AC as possible helped achieve that vision for him.

 

[droid6689]

Not true. One of my players did. Because he wanted to max out defense because he envisioned his role as the tank. The one whole holds the doorway while the others get the mission done. And the highest AC as possible helped achieve that vision for him.

I was obviously being hyperbolic. Protector will save the party more damage. I suppose defense isn't the worst choice if you wish to use a sentinel + PAM build

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk