Bull rush as part of a charge

[nute]

Definitely no. Charge is a full-round action that includes an attack. If you combine Bull Rush, the Bull Rush counts as your attack, since like an attack it is a standard action.

The real fun comes with things like Charge + Improved Sunder/Disarm/Trip.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which as you pointed out violates the stipulation of attack when getting to the threatened square. "First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent." {pg 154 PHB}

The first thing I did was move to the closest space from which I can attack the opponent. Then I continued to move along the straight line to perform the bull rush. Once my movement was concluded, I attacked.

Note that it doesn't say "First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent and stop." First I moved there; then I continued to move, because I had movement remaining. The movement must first be to that space, but the Charge text doesn't require me to stop there.

Of course, since I'm moving directly towards my opponent, continuing past that space will likely end up with me entering his space, and the errata state that you can't overrun as part of a charge... so about the only way I can continue moving is if I'm Bull Rushing. ... which, fortunately, is permissible as part of a charge.

Take another example - an ogre is 50 feet away from an archer. If he attacks from ten feet away, the archer will just 5' step and full attack. If he attacks from 5' away, the archer can't full attack without provoking an AoO. So it's to the ogre's advantage to attack from 5 feet away.

He charges. First, he moves to the closest space from which he can attack his opponent - ten feet away, condition satisfied. Second, since he has movement remaining, he continues along the straight line, ending up five feet away. Then, at the end of his movement, he attacks.

Where has he broken the rules of charging? The first thing he did was move to the closest space from which he can attack his opponent, and the rule doesn't say he has to stop there once he's done so...

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Definitely no. Charge is a full-round action that includes an attack. If you combine Bull Rush, the Bull Rush counts as your attack, since like an attack it is a standard action.

An attack isn't a standard action when it's part of a charge.

A bull rush isn't a standard action when it's part of a charge.

-Hyp.

 

[nute]

An attack isn't a standard action when it's part of a charge.

A bull rush isn't a standard action when it's part of a charge.

-Hyp.

But a Charge is a full-round action. You don't get to do anything else but the Charge. So your two or three options would be:

Charge w/attack (run up and hit Johnny Minotaur with a sword)
Charge w/bull rush (run up and push Johnny Minotaur back 5')
Charge w/bull rush AND attack (run up, push Johnny Minotaur back 5' AND hit him with a sword)

It seems like 3 is a bit overpowered tactically compared to 1 and 2, which we KNOW are possible as written. I'd rule that you can do 1 or 2, but not 3.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But a Charge is a full-round action. You don't get to do anything else but the Charge.

Right. And the Bull Rush is part of the Charge.

Charge w/attack (run up and hit Johnny Minotaur with a sword)
Charge w/bull rush (run up and push Johnny Minotaur back 5')
Charge w/bull rush AND attack (run up, push Johnny Minotaur back 5' AND hit him with a sword)

In a normal round, I can:
Move 60 feet (two move actions)
Move 30 feet and attack (move action + standard action)
Move 60 feet and attack (charge action)

Number 3 is more powerful than 1 or 2; does that mean it's incorrect?

-Hyp.

 

[nute]

Right. And the Bull Rush is part of the Charge.



In a normal round, I can:
Move 60 feet (two move actions)
Move 30 feet and attack (move action + standard action)
Move 60 feet and attack (charge action)

Number 3 is more powerful than 1 or 2; does that mean it's incorrect?

-Hyp.

No, but move 60 feet + bull rush + attack does seem incorrect.

IMC, Bull Rush falls into the category of Special Attack Actions like Sunder, Trip, Disarm, and Overrun. Thus, anything that allows a "melee attack" can allow one of those actions. Charge is basically "Move+melee attack in one full-round action for +2 to hit, -2 to AC, and +2 to Strength if making a Bull Rush".

 

[Hypersmurf]

IMC, Bull Rush falls into the category of Special Attack Actions like Sunder, Trip, Disarm, and Overrun. Thus, anything that allows a "melee attack" can allow one of those actions. Charge is basically "Move+melee attack in one full-round action for +2 to hit, -2 to AC, and +2 to Strength if making a Bull Rush".

Fair enough.

In the PHB, "anything that allows a melee attack can allow one" is denoted footnote 7 on Table 8-2. Bull Rush doesn't; instead, it's either a standard action, or part of a charge. Under neither Bull Rush nor Charge does it state that a Bull Rush as part of a charge replaces the attack made as part of a charge.

-Hyp.

 

[SlagMortar]

Charge w/attack (run up and hit Johnny Minotaur with a sword)
Charge w/bull rush (run up and push Johnny Minotaur back 5')
Charge w/bull rush AND attack (run up, push Johnny Minotaur back 5' AND hit him with a sword)

It seems like 3 is a bit overpowered tactically compared to 1 and 2, which we KNOW are possible as written. I'd rule that you can do 1 or 2, but not 3.

Bullrush has its own drawbacks such as provoking attacks of opportunity. It also is not always desireable to push an opponent backward. In many cases option 1 will be a more powerful choice than option 3.

How often does bull rush on charge actually get used? Perhaps without also getting a regular melee attack it is an underpowered option and could use beefing up.

Do we actually know that option 2 is possible as written? A charge is a full round action that includes movement and a melee attack. The attacks that can be used for this melee attack are regular melee attack, disarm, trip and grapple as defined by the table. Bull rush is not included. We know bull rush can be made as "part of a charge", but that is the rule we are debating and is not evidence that option 2 is possible. If you move double your speed and then do not perform a melee attack (regular melee attack, disarm, grapple, trip) then you did not perform the charge full round action.

 

[bestone]

I see the logic in the argument, bull rush is part of a charge, so is the attack at the end. Bullrush is an attack, So your attack at the end of a charge is a bullrush *normally you can only use bullrush as a standard action*. You can only make one melee attack on a charge, and bullrush is a melee attack. Its not like you get a free attack as part of the charge, it doesnt say so anywhere. So the argument is, you dont get a charge movement, and 2 attacks during that charge.

Yeah thats actually starting to make sense to me. bullrush is a standard action, but it gives you another use for it, as part of a charge, becaues we know you cant charge then make a standard action.

 

[bestone]

phb quote

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. However, it has carriest tight restrictions on how you can move.

I'd say bullrush is an attack, normally a standard action, but giving you the option to use it part of a charge.

You get an attack as part of a charge, i'd assume that wording would mean your attack is the bull rush.

-- I dunno??!? i always thought you COULD bullrush and attack - i'll leave this one to greater minds to figure out

Edit - Interesting note tho, Under attacking on a charge it has a bit of info about bullrush, that you get +2 strength, this could suggest that its considered "attacking on a charge"