Cadfan's Comments on Everything 4e

[Cadfan]

Have you seen the Swordmage in the FRPG? He can't use shields but he gets a +1 AC when fighting 2-handed and a +3 to AC when fighting one-handed (other hand empty). I read that and thought "Oh, that's who's using all the versatile weapons."

Really? I kind of figured that Swordmages would pick just one option and stick with it.

I mean, lets say you're using a weapon in one hand. Odds are its versatile because its a military weapon held in one hand, and they generally are. Probably its a longsword. So, you have a choice now.

1d8+stat+enhancement damage, and +3 ac

1d8+stat+enhancement+1 damage, and +1 ac.

When is +1 damage going to ever be worth -2 ac?

More likely, you're going to stick with the one handed option. And if you wanted to go for the two handed option, you're wielding a greatsword or a glaive or something in order to get the full benefit of both hands.

If the rule was something like, "gain +3 ac when fighting with a weapon in one hand, or +1 ac and +str damage when fighting with a weapon in two hands," you might see a trade off. Except then it would get abused by people using glaives and greatswords, so you'd have to restrict it to just the versatile wielders.... putting us back where we started, with needing a new build for versatile combatants.

 

[Filcher]

Minions

Mixed opinions here. I love the idea of minions. But the specific minion rules they've used, coupled with certain powers, give me a sense of disconnect. Cloud of Daggers auto kills minions by leaving them stuck in a zone that does about two damage when used by our wizard. But Reaping Strike, which automatically does at least 4 damage when used by our fighter, doesn't auto kill a minion. Slashing Wake auto kills minions, but Fireball doesn't. I'd like some consistency, and beyond that, I'm not sure that a minion should ever be automatically killed at all.

Awesome post. This is the sort of style of thread I have been dying to read. Not hyper rules intensive, ala math proofs, but good general strategy stuff useful to DMs trying to smooth out a new rule set.

Re: Minions. One of the things that occured to me while reading your post is how I use minions in combat. To date they've always been the "charge in and lock everybody down" type, ala the kobolds from KotS. But after reading your post, I realize that while that tactic was perfect for the kobold minions, it's stupid of me to apply that same tactic to all minions.

So for my next session, my players can expect to be ambushed by a half a dozen archer minions, who will all spread out around the party, and wing barbed arrows at the group. Meanwhile, some brutes will be the ones sent in to lock the PCs down, forcing the PCs to decide how they are going to go about taking out these minions, one at a tim, while they are getting hammered on by some thugs... We'll see how it goes.

(Ps. I'm sure this is a basic 4E tactic known to every other DM but me, but darnit, I haven't tried it yet.)

 

[Filcher]

"I let go of my greatsword with one hand (free action), draw my wand (minor action), cast my spell (standard action), then put my wand away (minor action again, this time using my move action). Next round I'll spend an undefined action (probably a minor) to grab my greatsword with both hands, and be ready for combat again."

Why not spend a feat to make your special cult wackado greatsword your implement? Seems much cooler, ala Moorcock and Co.

 

[Cadfan]

Why not spend a feat to make your special cult wackado greatsword your implement? Seems much cooler, ala Moorcock and Co.

That works for me. Is it in the game?

 

[Dausuul]

Awesome post. This is the sort of style of thread I have been dying to read. Not hyper rules intensive, ala math proofs, but good general strategy stuff useful to DMs trying to smooth out a new rule set.

Re: Minions. One of the things that occured to me while reading your post is how I use minions in combat. To date they've always been the "charge in and lock everybody down" type, ala the kobolds from KotS. But after reading your post, I realize that while that tactic was perfect for the kobold minions, it's stupid of me to apply that same tactic to all minions.

So for my next session, my players can expect to be ambushed by a half a dozen archer minions, who will all spread out around the party, and wing barbed arrows at the group. Meanwhile, some brutes will be the ones sent in to lock the PCs down, forcing the PCs to decide how they are going to go about taking out these minions, one at a tim, while they are getting hammered on by some thugs... We'll see how it goes.

(Ps. I'm sure this is a basic 4E tactic known to every other DM but me, but darnit, I haven't tried it yet.)

Wasn't known to me, but it makes sense. I'll have to consider it.

I do find that minions are "overpriced" at higher levels - that is, four minions do not actually perform as well as a single regular monster. PCs have too many area attacks, even setting aside the ones that auto-kill.

However, I recently had an epiphany on this: The only reason minions don't work well at high levels is that PCs have so many AoE encounter and daily powers. And the supply of encounter and daily powers doesn't last forever. Once it's gone, minions become a real threat.

So, if you want to use melee minions, set up the encounter with one or two "waves" of minions to start off the fight. Do not count these minions toward the encounter's XP budget (or count them at a steep discount). The PCs will wipe out these minions, but will burn most of their AoE stuff in the process. Then the real encounter begins.

 

[Scribble]

Wasn't known to me, but it makes sense. I'll have to consider it.

I do find that minions are "overpriced" at higher levels - that is, four minions do not actually perform as well as a single regular monster. PCs have too many area attacks, even setting aside the ones that auto-kill.

However, I recently had an epiphany on this: The only reason minions don't work well at high levels is that PCs have so many AoE encounter and daily powers. And the supply of encounter and daily powers doesn't last forever. Once it's gone, minions become a real threat.

So, if you want to use melee minions, set up the encounter with one or two "waves" of minions to start off the fight. Do not count these minions toward the encounter's XP budget (or count them at a steep discount). The PCs will wipe out these minions, but will burn most of their AoE stuff in the process. Then the real encounter begins.

Yeah minions aren' supposed to be as good as a normal monster.. They just can't be ignored. So your plan is a good one... Also remember to "think like the bbeg..." Mooks are there to suck up attacks that would otherwise be used against him.

 

[Filcher]

That works for me. Is it in the game?

Hell, no. But we're the DMs, right? Maybe a quest, too, to get special wackado weapon. Runic greatswords that help you cast spells are just sweet, IMO.

 

[Filcher]

So, if you want to use melee minions, set up the encounter with one or two "waves" of minions to start off the fight. Do not count these minions toward the encounter's XP budget (or count them at a steep discount). The PCs will wipe out these minions, but will burn most of their AoE stuff in the process. Then the real encounter begins.

Ooh....waves are good, too.

 

[Scribble]

Cad:

I'm with you on the multiclassing. It feels more "homogenous" then it's felt before. Especially coupled with things like rituals and alchemy, and skill training feats.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Hell, no. But we're the DMs, right? Maybe a quest, too, to get special wackado weapon. Runic greatswords that help you cast spells are just sweet, IMO.

That is pretty cool idea,

Orbs and wands are one handed and I would be willing to allow the use of a staff and sword also, al la Gandalf in the LoTR movies.